imo...nothing's convincing about the Bible, as to one's conclusions, say - by cherry picking verses in support of various povs. If one elects to see substitutionary Atonement in the Bible, fine with me; or one can reject it totally, opting for a form of Gnosticism which totally rejects the Redemption by Atonement, as in the case of Bishop Spong. (I would agree with a few of these, but not others; ymmv) - Bishop Spong's "12 Points", from Wiki: brackets - my inserts.
" Twelve points for ReformTheism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found. [chiefly on the basis of the "Ground of Being", with no Atonement through the Crucifixion]. Since God [again, God = "Ground of Being" for Spong, following Tillich] can no longer be conceived in theistic [i.e. the personal Deity, YHVH; or the Trinity] as a terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity.[in Spong's opinion] So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.[in other ways, especially!, in addition to its dualism] The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.[that's for sure!] The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.[genetically speaking only...has no bearing on "Divinity" per se, although it would indeed be miraculous. Conceivably (a pun) a demon could have a miraculous birth]. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.[conflating 2 different concepts: miracle stories and "incarnate deity". These are separate but related considerations]. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.[no more so than the concept of "Yagyas", although goat sacrifices and the like; let alone human Sacrifice, must imo certainly be looked at critically]. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning[raised into elevated Consciousness. Spong doesn't accept the physical Resurrection. Neither do I but this is speculation. Not enough convincing evidence imo].. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.[non-Sequitur] The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.[obviously, erudite people like Paul never believed that Heaven is physically in the "sky", so Spong's introduction of "space age" is bogus]. There is no external, objective, revealed standard written in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.[right, a point made by Sam Harris years after Spong's 12 points. Who needs YHVH or Jesus to be ethical?]. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.[nobody seems to know for sure, but prayers to a "theistic deity" can be made the subject of scientific inquiry]. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment.[he means by the external "God", YHVH; or the Trinity]. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.[for fricken' sure!] All human beings bear God's image[doesn't quite make sense but what he means is that the Ground of Being is literally the ultimate Substratum or AM-ness, but is not really an "image"]. and must be respected for what each person is.[fine, but evades the question of good vs evil]. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.[unless for example, somebody pulls his pants down in public]. ... [that's it for Spong-isms for now! (ymmv).] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@...> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dixon <mdixon.6569@> wrote: > > > > Judy, it couldn't have been John the Baptist. We all know he > > came back as John the Hagelin<snicker>. > > Heh...! > > > Besides, where did JTB get his enlightenment from? > > We don't know much about his early life... > > > The *hypocrites* I refer to are Christians in general, at > > least that is the perception or accusation of some on > > this list and to some degree there is some truth there. > > There are hypocrites of every religion. They just tend > to be noisier. Some of the best people I know are devout > Christians. > > > I can attest that I've never known a perfect Christian nor a > > perfect anything. But as M says, even a sick doctor can give > > out medicine. > > <Actually the sacrifice and substitutionary thing was Jesus', > > see John 3-14. > > These verses aren't explicit about substitutionary > atonement; you have to read it in. It isn't at all > clear that's what he was referring to. Sacrifice, yes, > but not substitutionary atonement per se. > > And John, of course, was written well after Paul's > Epistles, as well as after the other three Gospels. > John is also thought to be the least authentic of > the Gospels with regard to Jesus's words. So I don't > find this particular quotation all that convincing. > > Nevertheless, I do appreciate your testimony and > respect your faith. > > > > "For > > only I, the Son of Man,have come to earth and will return to heaven again. > > And > > as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so I, the > > Son > > of Man, must be lifted up on a pole, so that everyone who believes in me > > will > > have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so > > that > > everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did > > not > > send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it. There is no > > judgment > > awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already > > been > > judged for not believing in the only Son of God. Their judgment is based on > > this > > fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the > > darkness > > more than the light, for their actions were evil. They hate the light > > because > > they want to sin in darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their > > sins > > will be exposed and they will be punished. But those who do what is right > > come > > to the light gladly, so everyone can see that they are doing what God > > wants." > > These are the words of Jesus according to John,his best friend.< Yes, maybe > > one > > can have Moksha and Salvation. Yes, maybe there is reincarnation and it > > could > > take many lives to get a shot at either. Some times we have to finish > > falling to > > the bottom before we can begin to crawl out. And Christ said that the end, > > the > > last chance, will not come till all the world has heard the Gospel. > > However, we > > now live in a time when that is now possible. He also said to know the > > parable > > of the fig tree. When the fig tree (Israel) begins to bud, know that > > generation(baby boomers) will not perish before all these things(end > > times) come > > to pass. >
