--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@...> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltablues@> > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jr_esq@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jr_esq@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Barry, > > > > > > > > > > The first premise should be read as follows: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Whatever begins to exist has a CAUSE. > > > > > > > > > > Let us know if you agree with this. > > > > > > > > It sounds to me as if it's something that a > > > > determinist might think up. I have no idea > > > > whether it's true or not, and neither do you. > > > > > > Let us talk about the first premise. Don't you agree > > > that you were born through your mother who conceived you > > > with your father? As such, you as a physical being had > > > a CAUSE. Correct? If yes, then you would agree with > > > the first premise.> > > > > Fallacy of inductive reasoning. > > Exactly. "Because humans come into existence because > someone fucked someone else, the universe must have > also come into existence the same way." That is > *exactly* the projection-reasoning I described. > > John simply cannot *conceive* of a universe that > didn't have a beginning. So he's unable to address > the fact that his point #2 is an *assumption*, and > quite possibly an invalid one. If it *is* an invalid > assumption, then the whole line of reasoning falls > apart. > > On one level he's trying to suggest "As below, so > above." That is, "Because humans born and die, the > universe has to as well." > > My bet is that he will be completely unable to say > that an eternal, never-created universe is even a > *possibility*. And why? Because Bronze-age teachers > he considers infallible made up a bunch of creation > myths and he believes they're not only true, but > Truth. > > Me, I prefer to think for myself. >
Barry, Don't give us the run-around. Please, answer the question that I posed? Were you born to a human mother or not? If yes, then you had a beginning and a cause. Isn't that so? > > > > MY point was about your second premise. You > > > > have no way of knowing whether the universe > > > > was "created," in the sense that it didn't > > > > exist one moment and then existed the next. > > > > Buddhists (or at least some of them) believe > > > > that the universe was never created, that it > > > > has always been, is now, and always will be. > > > > There has never been a time when it was not. > > > > There will never be a time when it is not. > > > > > > > > Therefore the whole issue of "What was around > > > > before the First Creation that enabled Creation > > > > to happen?" is moot. Without the notion of a > > > > First Creation, this whole argument falls apart. > > > > > > > > My point is that humans, out of their fear and > > > > lack of understanding of their own birth and > > > > death, project a similar birth and death onto > > > > the universe. The fact that they do so doesn't > > > > make it so. > > > > > > > > C'mon, John...say it. I know you can. :-) IF > > > > the universe is eternal, and was never "created," > > > > then this whole argument is hooey. > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jr_esq@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This part of the discussion reminds me of the Kalam Cosmological > > > > > > > Argument which goes like this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Whatever begins to exist has a beginning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. The universe began to exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahem. Might I point out that point #2 is merely > > > > > > an assumption on your part, one caused by not > > > > > > being able to conceive of the universe as eternal > > > > > > and never-created? > > > > > > > > > > > > If the universe is eternal, point #2 is invalid, > > > > > > and thus point #3 is invalid. > > > > > > > > > > > > Puny humans, because they have a beginning and > > > > > > an end, find it difficult to conceive of anything > > > > > > that doesn't. Their lack of imagination, however, > > > > > > don't mean shit to the universe. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
