Your obvious anger and open hostility toward Bhaktis tell much more than anything else about your point of view here, Yifu.
It isn't only the Hare Krishnas [whom you apparently despise] that look to 'enlightenment' in terms of a personal relationship with God. Guru Dev's discourses are filled with recommendations to follow Bhagwan and to worship Paramatma, all according to the Veda Shastras. The following are only two of the dozens of examples he offers: --- Attainment of Bhagwan's World [from Guru Dev]--- "With the support of "nishkama (disinterested) karma yoga" every human being can come to the other side of the ocean of being "nishkama karma" does not mean to do action without desire, because without desire then nobody can have the pravritti (tendency, inclination or perseverance) of mind [to perform action]. There are two causes of pravritti (tendency for activity), one is the knowledge of "ishta sadhana" that is information that by doing an action we shall gain fulfilment; and secondly the knowledge of "krita sadhyata", knowledge that this work is feasible and possible for us to accomplish. Only by knowing these two pieces of information can there be a spur for any man to perform action. If there is any uncertainty about either of the two aspects then the spur to action will not occur. Therefore preceding a spur to action there must be the desire. Consequently the meaning of "nishkama karma" appears to be exactly this, that the karma suitable to be done is that which is fitting to offer to Bhagwan. "nishkama karma" is action done on Bhagwan's account. That karma that is to be offered to Bhagwan, and is not on account of being attached. Your right is only in the action of karma; never desire the effects. Because the soul's life has been suffering poverty from many lifetimes; it has no help with this call for assistance, not knowing what to ask for. When any demand is made then the demand is based on one's own merit. If the soul will wish for the effects of its karmas, then by one's merit there will be little effect desired, but if one surrenders to Bhagwan then Bhagwan who is All-Knowing, All-Powerful, from one's own merit offered to him on high he will give a high gift. Intelligently, delivering to Bhagavat (God), doing action, man gains Bhagwan's world. According to devotion he receives salvation, freedom and deliverance and is always released from being bound to birth and death. Performing karma one gets freed from bondage of life and death, this is the means to acquire moksha (final liberation, beatitude, redemption, absolution, quietus, salvation, freedom, death). >From Guru Dev, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati's 108 Discourses [Shri Shankaracharya UpadeshAmrita kaNa 8 of 108] http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/UA_Hindi.htm#kaNa_8 --The power of the grace of Bhagwan is not an arrangement to commit paapa (sin). In truth with the endless feeling from singing bhajan (hymns) to Bhagwan no forbidden behaviour can be practised. Then there is infinite wealth, for without Bhagwan there is nothing. When this kind of condition of devotion will come, then only that which pleases Bhagwan will be done. In the name of Bhagwan the strength of sin fades, so much so that wicked wrongdoings cannot be done. Valmiki is an example of maharishis (sages) who were very evil and wicked before but who let go of their own wickedness after being fully attentive to worshipping Bhagwan, from when they were made good. However sinful one is before, yet if he applies himself to worshipping Bhagwan, then sadagati (salvation, good conduct) will be certain. [Shri Shankaracharya UpadeshAmrita kaNa 15 of 108] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Yifu" <yifuxero@...> wrote: > > Nope...I'm familiar with the tricks of these devious Krishna Bhaktis. They > state outright (privately), that any tricks whatsoever are legitimate, as > long as it results in somebody saying "Krishna". Take a look at what he's > doing pursuant to the previous efforts of the Hare Krishna Guru. > ... > The latter's pov was that Krishna was Superior to the impersonal Absolute, > and that the impersonal Absolute was an "emanation" of Krishna. That message > obviously will not be conducive toward converting the Impersonalists (i.e. > non-dualists) such as Buddhists, Advaitins, Neo-Advaitins, and of course the > whole fold of TMO and Maharishi-inspired Cosmology. We can broadly combine > the various separate originations of non-dualism (mainly Buddhism and Saivite > Hinduism); into what Wilber calls "The Great Tradition". Adi Da called this > world-view "Advaitayana Buddhism". > ... > Now getting back to the Guru below, let's zero-in on a single statement that > calls his bluff, exposing his hairy butt, revealing the Wolf; and a phoney > attempt to trick the Impersonalists into worshipping Krishna: It's.... > ... > "And then there is Bhagawan which is the Absolute with personal form" > > That's it right there!. Let's go over this examining the key words. First, > "Bhagavan". By this he really means "Krishna". It's obvious this deceiver is > a Hare Krishna Vaishava Gaudiya Bhakti akin to the Hare Krisha Guru....only > the latter was a white zebra with black stripes, and this Guru is black with > white stripes. There both zebras.((but no offense to black or white...just > the same old critter but differing stripes). > ... > OK, as stated a million times, there's no evidence that (even if there were a > "Bhagavan"), that Krishna is THE Bhagavan, as opposed to (say) YHVH. Apart > from Vaisnava Scriptures chiefly the Srimad Bhagavan, what's the evidence > that Krishna is "Bhagavan"? > ... > In order to pull the wool of your eyes, he's simply replaced "Supreme > Personality of Godhead", with "Bhagavan", and tricked you even more. > ... > Next, the sentence says "...which is the Absolute". Duuuhhh....everything is > the Absolute. A dirt clod = the Buddha. There is no Absolute "above" the > Absolute. A dirt clod is equal in its Absoluteness to Krishna. Krishna is not > "more" Absolute than dog crap. Dog = "God" backwards, same stuff. > ... > Next to Last, he says..."...Absolute with Personal Form". Again, this is pure > Hare Krishna bullshit, only he's cleverly eliminated saying "Supreme > Personality of Godhead". Everything is "Absolute with form", if it has form. > But again, apart from Scriptures, no evidence, that Krishna is THE MAN. > ... > Last, zeroing in on the final 2 words, "Personal Form", this is faith-based > on Scriptural Authority. We are to believe Krishna's "Personal Form" > (whatever the word they use - Viratarupa...) is somehow superior to the > Christian Deity?, the Mormon God, or Xenu? Tom Cruise,...where are you.... > ... > See what he's doing? He's eliminated "Supreme Personality of God", replacing > that with "Bhagavan", and eliminating the Hare Krishna Guru's usage of > "Absolute Body", or "Viratarupa", with essentially, an equally faith-based, > totally Scriptural assertion: That Bhagavan (Krishna) is THE Personal God > above other Gods, and that He's the Absolute in Personal form. > ... > Adi Da claimed the same thing for himself: that he was the Transcendental > Man, the Absolute in Personal form, blah, blah,...total rubbish. Any > Personality whomever is obviously "The Absolute in Personal form". Even > Hitler. So go figure. > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" <do.rflex@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Yifu" <yifuxero@> wrote: > > > > > > Like I said, if somebody (say any Krishna Bhaktis of various stripes - > > > the Hare Krishna Guru, Swami Prakashanand, the fellow below...etc) claims > > > Krishna is the "Supreme Personality of Godhead", apart from Scriptures, > > > what's the evidence? > > > > > > You're not paying attention, Yifu and you clearly didn't read the post. He > > didn't claim that Krishna is the "Supreme Personality of Godhead". > > > > This is what he said: > > > > "Is the Absolute dual, or is the Absolute non-dual is the Absolute > > personal, is the Absolute impersonal?" And sometimes I would get very vague > > answers. And sometimes I would get very conflicting, combating answers > > against the apparent opposing side. And I was really looking to understand. > > > > "And on the path of Bhakti I found what I felt to be the synthesis of the > > two, and it's based on the Shrimad Bhagavatam, the Upanishads, the holy > > scriptures and a whole line of great saintly people who teach this > > principle. And I'll share with you a little piece of it. > > > > "There's a beautiful verse in the Vedas (recites verse in Sanskrit then > > explains it as follows): There's one Absolute Truth we can call God, we can > > call Nirvana, but there's one Absolute Truth. > > > > And according to the Vedas, this one Absolute Truth eternally, > > simultaneously has three features: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagawan. > > > > "Brahman is the all-pervading formless, impersonal Absolute, which is... > > the realization of that Brahman is to merge with that one Absolute. > > > > "Paramatma is that one Supreme same Absolute who is situated within the > > heart of every living being, giving guidance, giving intuition when we > > actually connect to it. And Patanjali and many yogis really tried to > > connect to that Paramatma, that Absolute within the heart who can give > > power, who can give wisdom, who can give everything. > > > > And then there is Bhagawan which is the Absolute with personal form." > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > The Guru below appears to be more "liberal" than the Fundie Bhakti's since > > he's saying there's a certain legitimacy in accepting the impersonal > > Absolute in terms of Realization, along with Bhakti. Fine...even Ramana > > Maharshi was a devotee of Shiva and Ramakrishna was a devotee of Kali. > > > ... > > > However, under the cover of Absoluteness, he appears to be sneaking in a > > > form of "Godhead" Personality worship; even though he's provided no > > > evidence that Krishna is superior to YHVH or the Scientology God Xenu. > > > Again, there's no evidence that one or the other of these "gods" is the > > > "Supreme Personality of Godhead". > > > ... > > > The Guru below is a Wolf in Sheep's clothing - trying to sneak in Hare > > > Krishna Fundamentalism in to the field under the cover of Brahman > > > Realization. It's a Trojan Horse. Don't fall for it. > > > ... > > > Either there is a "Supreme Personality of the Godhead" or there is not. > > > But should any Entity make such a claim, I would spit in His face. > > > Goddesses such as Kali and Durga are sugar and spice. The male "gods": > > > Krishna, YHVH, Ram,...appear to be self-worshipping abusers high on > > > testosterone rather than Soma. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" <do.rflex@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Yifu" <yifuxero@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Don't let yourself be conned by these Krishna Bhaktis. Krishna is not > > > > > the "Supreme Personality of Godhead". > > > > > > > > > > > > Nowhere in the interview was that claimed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no such Personality, and the burden of proof apart from merely > > > > quoting Scriptures is on the claimants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So where's the proof of YOUR claim, Yufi? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anybody however, is free to set up a dualist, loving relationship with > > > > one of these "gods"; whomever She/He may be. > > > > > http://www.utilitarianism.com/gautama-buddha.jpg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" <do.rflex@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excerpt transcribed from an interview Radhanath Swami gave to Rick > > > > > > Archer - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick Archer: I exchanged a Facebook chat with someone the other day > > > > > > who > > > > > > had had what she called a 'non-dual' realization. If you're kind of > > > > > > in > > > > > > tune with the current atmosphere around, there are a lot of teachers > > > > > > espousing non-duality and non-dual realizations and I hear very > > > > > > little > > > > > > talk of God among them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But in any case this girl said that, you know what, there was no > > > > > > sense > > > > > > of personal self and all is one, but there was no bliss. And she > > > > > > said, > > > > > > well is that all enlightenment is. It's hyped up to be this great > > > > > > blissful thing and I'm hardly even interested now. It didn't have > > > > > > the > > > > > > allure that I expected it to have. > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggested to her that perhaps that little glimpse she had had was > > > > > > not > > > > > > necessarily the full blossoming of what enlightenment or > > > > > > realization or > > > > > > awakening can be and that she should keep persevering as there's > > > > > > more to > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I just want to throw in one more point and I want you to respond, > > > > > > and > > > > > > that is that interviewing lots and lots of people, a new one every > > > > > > week, > > > > > > I encounter a great number of people who don't say much or speak > > > > > > much of > > > > > > God. They almost seem to think of God as a human concept, and yet > > > > > > they > > > > > > have a sort of a realization, a non-dual realization of some sort. > > > > > > And > > > > > > I'm always kind of needling them a bit to suggest that perhaps > > > > > > there's > > > > > > further progress yet to undergo and that the whole thing will become > > > > > > richer, fuller and more with a Divine quality to it as time goes on. > > > > > > > > > > > > Very often they say, no, no, I don't see how there can possibly be > > > > > > any > > > > > > further progress. So it's a pity in a way. It seems like, to me > > > > > > anyway, > > > > > > it's only half the package and there's more to be known. > > > > > > > > > > > > Radhanath Swami: (chuckles) You're expert, Rick, at extracting > > > > > > deeper > > > > > > and deeper understanding. To be honest with you, I had the same > > > > > > dilemma > > > > > > on my journey and I have written about in my book 'The Journey Home' > > > > > > that I met people that I saw such incredible character of > > > > > > compassion ans > > > > > > self-control and enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And some of them were talking about the Absolute being a very > > > > > > all-pervading impersonal experience and others, a very intimate > > > > > > loving > > > > > > personal experience. And I loved my teachers in both of these > > > > > > schools, > > > > > > and the many variations among these schools. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was only 19 or 20 years old at the time and I was really seeking. > > > > > > And > > > > > > I couldn't just accept superficial answers some people gave me when > > > > > > I > > > > > > questioned. "Is the Absolute dual, or is the Absolute non-dual > > > > > > is the Absolute personal, is the Absolute impersonal?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And sometimes I would get very vague answers. And sometimes I would > > > > > > get > > > > > > very conflicting, combatting answers against the apparent opposing > > > > > > side. > > > > > > And I was really looking to understand. And on the path of Bhakti I > > > > > > found what I felt to be the synthesis of the two, and it's based on > > > > > > the > > > > > > Shrimad Bhagavatam, the Upanishads, the holy scriptures and a whole > > > > > > line > > > > > > of great saintly people who teach this principle. And I'll share > > > > > > with > > > > > > you a little piece of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick: Please. > > > > > > > > > > > > Radhanath Swami: There's a beautiful verse in the Vedas (recites > > > > > > verse > > > > > > in Sanskrit then explains it as follows): There's one Absolute > > > > > > Truth we > > > > > > can call God, we can call Nirvana, but there's one Absolute Truth. > > > > > > And > > > > > > according to the Vedas, this one Absolute Truth eternally, > > > > > > simultaneously has three features: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagawan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brahman is the all-pervading formless, impersonal Absolute, which > > > > > > is... > > > > > > the realization of that Brahman is to merge with that one Absolute. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paramatma is that one Supreme same Absolute who is situated within > > > > > > the > > > > > > heart of every living being, giving guidance, giving intuition when > > > > > > we > > > > > > actually connect to it. And Patanjali and many yogis really tried to > > > > > > connect to that Paramatma, that Absolute within the heart who can > > > > > > give > > > > > > power, who can give wisdom, who can give everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > And then there is Bhagawan which is the Absolute with persnoal form. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick: The Personal aspect of God. > > > > > > > > > > > > Radhanath Swami: Yeah, the Personal aspect of God just like the > > > > > > sun and the sunshine. The sunshine is like Brahman. It's > > > > > > all-pervading, > > > > > > it's everywhere, it's light. And the sun is simultaneously existing > > > > > > with > > > > > > the sunlight and the sun has form. So God simultaneously exists, > > > > > > but God > > > > > > is infinite. > > > > > > > > > > > > When we say that form limits God, to say that God has no form is > > > > > > also a > > > > > > limit of God. So the Bhakti scriptures teach that the form of the > > > > > > Lord, > > > > > > or Bhagawan is eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not material. It's not conceivable. Like I have eyes, and > > > > > > because > > > > > > my eyes can only see a certain distance, my eyes are limited. So > > > > > > some > > > > > > will say for God to be unlimited he has to have no eyes. The Bhakti > > > > > > scriptures say that God has eyes but God's eyes can see all things > > > > > > at > > > > > > all times everywhere. Now we may say, how is that possiblebut the > > > > > > Bhakti > > > > > > scriptures say that the Absolute is beyong the limits of what we > > > > > > consider possible otherwise what's the use of Him being the > > > > > > Absolute? > > > > > > > > > > > > So, for those who seek this mukti, or this eternal freedom from all > > > > > > suffering, from all pain, from all ego, the ecstacy of mukti is the > > > > > > goal > > > > > > of those who seek the non-dual aspect of the Absolute. And the goal > > > > > > of > > > > > > those who seek the personal aspect is 'prema' which means Divine > > > > > > love > > > > > > based on intimate, loving relationships which are forever. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Vedas explain that beyond this material creation there's the > > > > > > spiritual sky which is the all-pervading Brahman. Then there is many > > > > > > many spiritual planets within the spiritual sky where there are the > > > > > > different aspects of God; Ram, Shiva, Krishna. These different > > > > > > aspects > > > > > > of God are eternally existing and exchanging eternal unlimited > > > > > > loving > > > > > > relationships with their devotees. > > > > > > > > > > > > Radhanath Swami recites a verse and explains it as expressing that > > > > > > we > > > > > > are inconceivably one with God and different from God. God is > > > > > > inconceivably personal and impersonal and according to how we > > > > > > approach the Lord, the Lord will reveal accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > And this was very important to me because I met people who worship > > > > > > Ram, > > > > > > who worship Krishna in a very very personal way and their goal in > > > > > > life > > > > > > was to have eternal loving relationship with the person of God. And > > > > > > I > > > > > > met others who wanted to go beyong all form and enter into this > > > > > > all-pervading Oneness. And both sides, they were great saints. But > > > > > > in my > > > > > > heart, I was pulled toward prema toward this eternal sweet, loving > > > > > > relationship that we can eternally have with Bhagawan. > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~ The complete interview along with a brief bio of Radhanath > > > > > > Swami can > > > > > > be seen here: http://batgap.com/radhanath-swami/ > > > > > > <http://batgap.com/radhanath-swami/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
