seventhray1: Incredible post zarzari. Just incredible. The window seems to have opened a little for Judy to possibly see things differently. I hope she will take your advice to heart, and not retreat into the same old, same old. Well done.
RESPONSE: Incredible post seventhray1. Just incredible. The window seems to have slammed shut completely for seventhray to possibly see things differently. I hope he will take this judgment to heart, and not retreat into the same old, same old. Well done. Your prejudice, your blindness, your imperviousness is shocking, Steve. Are you even beyond the prayers of your "very devout Catholic" wife? I hope not. She must find you at times terribly mischievous and irritating. You have NEVER taken in the amount of reality and truth that would permit you to make the judgments you make. You are perversely selective in almost everything you say [except in telling us about your children]. There is no willingness to let realty have some play inside of you, to lead you, to inspire you in your responses. You will never travel into the unknown. You don't surround an issue with your heart and mind. You are looking always, in every instance, to feed your own predetermined point of view. It is an outrage. It is a tragedy. I feel deeply sorry for you, Steve. But evidently there is nothing you can do about this. Your niceness is poisoned at its tip. Of course you don't know anything about all this I am telling you, but this does not in any way make it less true. But there is no telling you anything, Steve, and you have already got your mind in working order to make some response to this which will miss entirely the impact of what I have said. You won't let anything hit you, Steve. You are innocently conning yourself out of grappling with the issues here honestly and existentially. You are ant-existential ini your approach: intellectually and morally. This has nothing to with my view of anyone you have discussed by the way. I am notit is hard even to find myself telling you thisattempting to respond to you out of our differences of point of view. I accept your point of view *in principle*. But what I find so disappointing and killing to the soul is your strange personal methodology of examining the character of another person. Your experience is so fixed and unchangeable that it will not tolerate the notion of *discovery*, of experimental knowledge. Everything you read at FFL is only read from the perspective of the extent to which it reinforces your prior determinative way of seeing someone. Steve, I am sorry, but you don't get a passing grade at all. Do you want to get into all this? It's not worth itnot for me, not for you. You do have a pulse, right? Your loving friend, Robin --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "seventhray1" <steve.sundur@...> wrote: > > > Incredible post zarzari. Just incredible. The window seems to have > opened a little for Judy to possibly see things differently. I hope she > will take your advice to heart, and not retreat into the same old, same > old. Well done. > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, zarzari_786 <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" jstein@ wrote: > > > > > > Responding to two of zarzari's posts here: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, zarzari_786 <no_reply@> wrote: > > > <snip> > > > > The moment you drop some turd on Barry, you have already > > > > got 100 points with Judy. Next do some love-bombing, and > > > > tell her that her logic is irrefutable, or even further, > > > > tell her that she understands very subtle points about > > > > enlightenment / God etc, you name it, nobody on FFL is yet > > > > ready to 'get', and she throws her underwear at you. > > > > > > "Judy, your post was brilliant, and I never had a doubt that your > > > intellect is among the sharpest here, and that's why I can say to > > > you, I have the clear feeling, there is some love-bombing going on > > > here."--zarzari, #298524 > > > > > > "Judy, already there was so much praise about this post of yours, > > > and I agree with that! that I hardly dare to answer you."--zarzari, > > > #298541 > > > > > > "Just imagine, you got a new lover, with whom you are deeply in > > > romantic love, and after three years you notice, that he is utterly > > > stupid, and you can't even talk to him, because he wouldn't even > > > understand. What a shame for somebody with your brilliant > intellect." > > > --zarzari, #298541 > > > > > > "This is a very clear and beautiful explanation here > Judy."--zarzari, > > > #299795 > > > > Judy, glad you found the above references, indeed demonstrations of my > love bombing to you as per your verdict. (I'm putting on my best Ravi > voice:) You can frame it and put it on to your largest wall, and look at > the picture I have drawn of you - how nice. > > > > And, you know, Judy, I stand by those quotes, for the reasons and in > the circumstances I quoted them. That's one Judy I know. > > > > Judy, in the past, when you have been criticized here, I sometimes > wondered at all the characterizations you have received. I sometimes > wondered, how it would be to be on the 'other' side, the Non-Judy side. > To understand those characterizations, you have to be on the other side, > and then you discover a Judy that is not even trying to be objective, > she is mind-reading, knowing what the other persons motives are, knowing > if the person is lying or making something up. She is getting AT people, > wanting to PROVE they are wrong, and goes on in endless nitpicking > dialogues, that even your greatest admirers have seen as an unproductive > indulgence, yes also me in the past, fully of sticky emotions, anger > etc. > > > > So, for example, Barry is very often providing a bird eyes view, not > getting into those nitpicking things, and he certainly reveals aspects > that are true and valuable. But you don't get it, you concentrate only > on the negatives. That he exaggerates and uses abusive or drastic > language is not a secret, but yet, you do the same, once you 'recognize' > someone as your adversary. Same with Vaj, he has a lot to give, in a > certain way, given his background, he is more similar to me, but for you > he is only a 'liar'. You are judgmental, negative and angry a lot of the > time. You 'call out' people for things! WTF! What gives? How spiritual > are you? What is this, all these judgments? > > > > This is, you should also understand, not only a waste of time, of > yours and all the others, but also a misuse of intellect. > > > > How do you know, if a person can not be well meaning to another person > who is angry on him, and even in disagreement wish her well? What is > intellectual dishonest about it, and what impells you to insinuate that > here? Do you really think, all people have to feel like you do, and that > you therefore can conclude about their mind-state? > > > > Did you not read, how I tried to console you, at the end of our > private exchange, even though you said you were glad that I > unsubscribed? I recommend you read the post I wrote in reply to Robin > and Emily, and I can assure you that I am honest about what I said about > you there. All your allegations about my being 'dishonest' and slimy is > your mind-reading, not true at all. You should doubt your reading of > other peoples emotions. Your logic starts to become repetitive and > underwhelming, stale, standard allegations we have seen you bestow on > about anyone you dislike. You do not know peoples minds and hearts and > have no reason to make the judgments you do. > > > > So sorry I didn't remember your 'rotten human' being, so 'objectively' > I am *proven* wrong by you using the word evil!! OMG, big deal. This is > the kind of dialogues you engage in. > > > > If you cannot understand, that a person may wish another person well, > even in disagreement, this is a major human flaw. I just got a shock, > how quickly I got the get-at-Barry treatment after this disagreement. > let Robin talk for himself. He is smart enough. Now he came back, and I > seriously, honestly was happy for you, but see what you do! > > > > This conflict with Barry has become your whole life, this anger you > constantly project on him, has become the whole content of your life, he > has become the template, you are ready to use for anyone now. I still > wish you well! I still wish you a happy new year (and I do mean it) I > feel embarrassed that I have to talk to you like a child. > > > > Judy, I didn't have to write this here, nobody else here will care, > and I certainly wouldn't even consider wasting my time answering ( I > even typed it all two times, as I lost everything the first time) See, I > don't have to do this. I write it only to you, because I care about you. > And I am not trying to regain your alliance, I am not in your box > anymore, let others play this role. > > > > So, as Robin says quite right, but I don't think you will accept this, > you have to soften your hard and stale heart. You have to cease to be so > judgemental about people, and so condemning. I never understood, that > you call somebody a 'rotten human being', how can anybody agree with > language like this? There is something fundamentally wrong in this. > > > > > I checked my records, zarzari, and I don't seem to have any > > > underpants signed out to you. Perhaps I just forgot to mark > > > down the transaction when I threw them at you. If so, in > > > light of your present position, if you do have a pair, I'd > > > be much obliged if you'd return them so I can throw them at > > > someone else who will truly appreciate them. I'm sure Barry > > > will be more than willing to replace the ones you have with > > > a pair of his own. > > > > > > <snip> > > > > I have also tried to post things here in the past, to add > something, > > > > to contribute something of substance, some memories of movement > > > > history, some context of various traditions, some out-of-the-box > > > > experiences. We do get this also from Barry 2, from Barry, from > Vaj, > > > > from Curtis. I would be hardpressed to think of anything of Judy, > > > > which was not either coming from FFL informants itself, or is > usual > > > > TM meditator last weekend-course talk. > > > > > > Selective reading and memory-wiping can be very effective > > > in reinforcing one's preferred perceptions of the moment. > > > > > > I'm surprised you find my weekend-course talk to be so up > > > to date. My last weekend course, as it happens, was in 1995. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, zarzari_786 <no_reply@> wrote: > > > <snip> > > > > Absolutely. To say that she is neutral about people and only > > > > addresses issues is absolute hypocrisy > > > > > > Straw man. Nobody has said this that I'm aware of. I certainly > > > haven't. > > > > > > The issue here was Barry's claim that when I go after him or > > > Curtis or Vaj, it's because they're TM critics, even if what > > > I'm on them about has nothing to do with TM. > > > > > > That's what Raunchy was addressing. In her phrase, what I do > > > here is to "confront bullshit," whoever it emanates from, > > > whatever it's about. That doesn't mean I refrain from > > > criticizing the bullshitter. > > > > > > > all the LABELS (Emily take note) like 'master of unintended > irony', > > > > or calling Vaj a notorious liar are from her. > > > > > > Of course, those weren't the kind of labels Emily was > > > referring to. > > > > > > > She 'picks her fights' as she says > > > > > > You missed the context on that one. I was actually > > > quoting Curtis. > > > > > > >, and she loves fights, that is obvious, and she > > > > thoroughly believes that you Barry are evil, she said so several > > > > times, (Can be here or in a private exchange, but she believes it) > > > > > > I have never said Barry was "evil," nor do I believe it. > > > What I have said and do believe is that he's a thoroughly > > > rotten human being. "Evil" applies to somebody like Hitler > > > or Pol Pot or Stalin, not a chickensh*t like Barry. > > > > > > > It's visible since decades. Many people in the past, including > > > > myself, who had a general positive view of her abilities and her > > > > attitude, have seen this as her basic weakness, and actually tried > > > > to persuade her from refraining from this behaviour, which is > > > > mainly motivated by anger. > > > > > > In fact, it's rarely motivated by anger. It's usually > > > disgust and contempt. > > > > > > > If she would only be neutral, making points and pointing out > > > > logical flaws as raunchydog wants to make us believe > > > > > > Again, that isn't the point Raunchy was making. > > > > > > > why, I ask you, anyone, is she unable to wish a happy birthday > > > > to her main adversary. She thinks she would be hypocritical if > > > > she did so. > > > > > > No, that isn't what I said. In response to Rick's assertion > > > on Barry's birthday that Barry's detractors had a chance "to > > > shower him with love and kisses," I replied, "I'm not that > > > enlightened, sorry. My love is still conditional on being > > > treated like a human being." > > > > > > Now, if I had had a lengthy, mutually angry argument with > > > someone that ended without resolution, and they had > > > concluded by wishing me a happy birthday--or, you know, a > > > happy New Year--I might well say I couldn't return the wish > > > because I was still angry and it would therefore be > > > hypocritical. Implicit in that remark would be that I > > > considered it hypocritical for the other person to have > > > wished *me* a happy birthday or happy New Year. > > > > > > Just a wee bit different from what you tried to put > > > over here. > > > > > > > She thinks it would be some kind of moodmaking, as her > > > > FEELINGS are really the opposite. So much for her > > > > balanced and neutral view. > > > > > > Straw man, again. I don't claim to have a "balanced and > > > neutral view" (I do try to be as balanced as possible, but > > > I'm far from perfect); and I have FEELINGS just like > > > anybody else. I don't like it when people don't treat me > > > as a human being. I dislike it even more when people don't > > > treat *others* as human beings. I find it difficult to > > > express good wishes toward such people; I don't like to be > > > insincere. > > > > > > Apparently being insincere doesn't bother you at all. > > > > > > > Barry, Vaj and Curtis, all say valuable things here, all > > > > make good posts here, they may go overboard in the extend > > > > they make a point IMHO, but it is simply wrong to not see > > > > the validity of what they have to say. > > > > > > Curtis often says valuable things. In my opinion, Barry > > > rarely does, and Vaj almost never does. > > > > > > > So Judy too has her good points, I can clearly see that, > > > > she also makes good posts, once she pots with someone she > > > > has a positive view of. > > > > > > I also make good points when I post with someone of whom I > > > have a negative view. > > > > > > > But the main intercations are unfortunately these fights, and > > > > she definitely has a list of adversaries, if it is a LIST or > > > > simply a mental list doesn't matter, > > > > > > Everyone has "mental lists" of people they don't like, > > > and I'm certainly no different. That's not the same as > > > having an "Enemies List" as Barry uses the term. > > > > > > > and I know it, she makes a certain switch at some point, and > > > > you are an adversary. > > > > > > I have been known to make a switch when someone I have > > > previously respected and had a cordial relationship with > > > does something inexcusable and not only refuses to > > > even consider any criticism but goes on and on with > > > elaborate and dishonest self-justification. > > > > > > I made a switch with you when you decided to engage in > > > slimy speculation about Robin's mental health. You made > > > a switch with me when I criticized you for doing so. > > > > > > Since then you've made something like 10 posts to others > > > dumping on me. As with your remarks about Robin, you > > > didn't have the guts to wait till I returned and confront > > > me directly. > > > > > > > I don't want to complain, I can live with it, but I do see her > > > > modus operanti. > > > > > > Poor victimized zarzari, he really doesn't *want* to > > > complain, but he just couldn't help himself. > > > > > >
