--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <vajradhatu@...> wrote: > > > On Aug 3, 2012, at 12:26 AM, awoelflebater wrote: > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <vajradhatu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2012, at 3:11 PM, "feste37" <feste37@> wrote: > > > > > > > So Vaj moved from the unpleasant pedophile analogy to a quite > > different accusation of criminality, all within a few hours! My, > > oh, my, some people's hatred runs so deep it knows no bounds of > > decorum or decency. > > > > > > > > I have never had the impression that Robin is "targeting" > > anyone. He is working out some ideas and exchanging them with > > people who are willing to debate or simply chat with him. That's > > really the purpose of this forum, is it not? > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we're honest with ourselves, and honest with the people around > > us, we hopefully tack close to what's actually happening, even in > > the most relative terms, in our life. > > > > > > So the question then becomes, how would you react to someone who > > caused friends to be expelled from college > > > > Only MIU could expel people. > > I think the key word you're missing is "caused". RWC did not expel > these students, he was the cause of their expulsion.
No he didn't. MIU expelled them. The students made their own decision to do whatever they did in relation to Robin and MIU. What caused the expulsion was a combination of MIU's policy and the student's decisions to do what they did to defy that policy. Robin was just incidental. > > > > some just before graduation, all that I talked to went on an > > inviolable faith that the person they put trust in was legit and > > worth risking their young careers, their young lives. > > > > The word "young" makes my eyes water. And oh, what fun they had. > > I'll bet a degree from MIU was worth the risk. > > Again, you seem to miss the point - yet another disconnect - they did > not get degrees from MIU, they were expelled. No Vaj, I was being ironic here implying a degree from MIU is not worth that much, not worth as much as the "fun" and adventure they had. > > > >How do you react when you hear someone extolling the virtues of > > maintaining the meditative purity of domes, while you know and have > > talked to the students that were tricked > > > > How tricked? Everyone is a free agent. These were intelligent, > > sensitive, strong men. They were adventurers. Nothing in this life > > is without "risk". > > The key trick was "look at me, I'm an enlightened man" and based on > that faulty information (from my POV) they preceded. I guess really > the issue here is that they were part of an organisation that placed > great emphasis on alleged "higher" states of consciousness and here > was RWC presenting himself as the fulfillment of that ideal, in the > flesh. In such a case, the onus falls on the integrity, honesty and > maturity of the guru, as he's taking responsibility for his students. Again I have to disagree. If someone's wrong or incorrect in a perception whose fault is that? And who is to say they were wrong? Robin believed himself to have been enlightened and so did many others including me. Are you saying that you think Robin knew he wasn't enlightened the whole time and was pretending for ten years? > > > > > > > into violating that sacred space (for those involved in the dome > > programs); I've heard their hopes and their fears, as I spoke to > > them while they were still doing it, and afterwards. > > > > So what are they doing now? How are they? Did they survive? Are > > they still curled up in the fetal position, inconsolable? > > I cannot say, but I would doubt that. Me too. > > So you're going with an enablers tack: they survived and they're OK, > so everything's OK, Robin's OK, I'm OK? I'm OK, Robin appears OK but I'm thinking you have a ways to go. > > > > > > > How do you handle this same person recommending abortion for some > > couples "evolution"? > > > > Not the same as undertaking the procedure. As I said, everyone is a > > free agent. Choice, Vaj, choice. No guns to anyone's head. > > But you ignore the key component here: enlightened advice = the > advice to have, if you're on a liberation path. Of course the problem > is, 'what happens when da guru ain't enlightened?' ;-) And what happens when da guru is? How would it differ? Impossible to say. You imply that all enlightened advice results in bouncing babies and happy people. Life isn't like that Vaj, right? > > Now while it didn't go as badly as say Rev. Jones or Rajneeshpuram, > I'd hope you can see that a similar seed exists in these very > different circumstances. So my hope would be that we become wiser - > and hopefully more compassionate in action - from seeing these > spiritual pathologies acted out. Then we need not be enablers or > victims any longer, just wiser to the ways of the world. > > > > > > > > > And then there is the demonic confrontations... > > > > That " ..." implies so much here. Left to the reader's imagination. > > Only if they don't ask or make inquiry. > > Hopefully we would ask ourselves what benefit there was from it? Was > it real? Did it represent a pathology of some sort in the guru or > some form of direct seeing (of ultimate reality)? > > If it wasn't real, what does that mean if we encounter similar > situations later in life? Are we wiser in response to what we > learned, or do we ignore what we've seen and not act in ways that are > helpful? > > Each person will respond very differently. For example one might > expect someone who was found to be demonic would react strongly, > someone who never was, less so. One might expect that, but I was an heavily confronted numerous times and I consider myself rather well-adjusted and unreactive, about this and many other aspects of the old days including dear old Robin himself. It just doesn't compute with me to not take total responsibility for my involvement. No one is to blame, for any of it, except myself and I don't even "blame" me. It was all really good and necessary in the end (and in the now). > > > > > > > Then as time passes, you forget most of this, only to run into > > that same person again, weaving the same old patterns (to your > > perception) once again. What do you do then Feste? > > > > We know what you do Vaj. > > I doubt that, because most of the meaty discussion of RWC and WTS > have not taken place on FFL. They've taken place offlist between old > movement insiders, therapists and people who were there. > > > > > > > > > If you don't get that you're his target audience Feste, then > > maybe it's because the crosshairs are placed so finely on you, > > you've missed their very presence. > > > > OK, if I had said that I would immediately be branded a DQ, or as > > Tea said, a melodramatic Queen. > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > I like Robin. I think he is a good guy. > > > > > > > > > I would think you two (and many here) share some similar or even > > same sentimental moments. R's sentimentality should appeal to many > > TM folk. > > > > I think you are the one who is sentimental, reminiscing on so many > > old times. In fact, I would go so far as to say obsessing. > > And, of course, you're welcome to your opinion. >
