A shovel is useful enough for me, to avoid wondering who invented it. I am sure you get my drift. The only way Maharishi's enlightenment would matter to me, is if my experiences were not according to what he said about it. No questions, no problem.
I like what you said about picking MMY's outliers. I have always done the same. They always point beyond the "7 states". Those higher states (TC, CC, GC, UC) only conform to symptoms of consciousness modifying waking, dreaming and sleeping - phenomena conforming to the small self. Even UC needs duality, to be appreciated. Following those seven states, the shift in identification, from small self, to universality, is what Maharishi always pointed to. After that, its game over. Once the shift is made, we can set aside the small self, when convenient, or use it with all love and appropriateness, to fulfill the expectations of universality. It continues to exist, as a servant to the infinite, but we know and act with the assurance that we are not confined to it. --- In [email protected], "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" <anartaxius@...> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], doctordumbass@ <no_reply@> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" > > <anartaxius@> wrote: > > > --- In [email protected], doctordumbass@ <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Its funny, dude. I am writing about direct experience wrt Barry, and > > > > when I do, you quote me chapter and verse out of some metaphysical > > > > playbook. Which is a little too conceptual for my taste. If you doubt > > > > what I said about Barry never having experienced enlightenment, and > > > > why, why not ask Barry about it? He knows the truth of it. > > > > > > Where did you get the idea I was talking about metaphysics? Metaphysics > > > explains nothing, it is tripe. Everybody experiences 'enlightenment' all > > > the time, but the kicker is most of them don't have that word active in > > > their vocabulary so the ramifications of having that concept in their > > > brain never occurs to them, and most of the rest that do, think > > > enlightenment is something else that they have to find, or develop, or > > > attain; and that is OK because that is usually a step we have to go > > > through on the supposed journey. > > > > > > With you for example, how does that experience of silence seem, is it > > > internal to the body; external? In relation to activity, where is it (if > > > that is a meaningful question)? How would you describe it qualitatively > > > or quantitatively? For me, the experience of silence has qualitatively > > > and quantitatively changed over a long period of time. But the experience > > > of silence alone with activity is not what I would call enlightenment. > > > Increased silence is just a component of experience and at the same time, > > > is all of it. > > > > **Right. Enlightenment is the fundamental shift in identity, accompanied by > > the conditioning of the mind to support silence at all times, not simply > > being restful. > > > > > > Since you feel you have nailed Barry, what about Maharishi? Was Maharishi > > > enlightened or not? What is your take on that? > > > > **I guess my question back to you, is, "Who gives a shit, Xeno??" Barry is > > interacting in his peculiar way on this board, and my commenting on his > > behavior is relevant to my continued enjoyment on this forum. Whether or > > not Maharishi was enlightened is not relevant to anything in my life. Is it > > in yours? Apparently it means a lot to Barry, too. Maharishi provided me > > the tools to take my own path, and I am always hugely grateful to him for > > that. That is where it begins, and that is where it ends, for me. > > Well, look, I got tools from Maharishi too (by proxy, never directly); and > the tools you get from such teachers are to discover what you are, not what > they are. I was never really interested in M as a personality. For a while, > his explanations of the tools were useful. I think you are short changing the > experience by not giving a shit. Others on this forum do give a shit about > whether M was or was not enlightened. Whatever your point of view at the > moment is, other will certainly have different ones. > > You would think, upon embarking on a spiritual quest that it might be > important that the teacher one selects at that point (or at any point in the > journey) is at least a bit more experienced in the field than you are. > Enlightenment does not seem to have much in the way of identifiable markers > when observing a particular person, or reading what they write. It is easier > to tell if someone is probably not having experiences like that. You might be > sitting next to some old lady, and never know she had that depth of being. > > I happen to give M the nod for enlightenment, something a lot of people here > do not think, and that is mostly based on what I call outlier comments he > made, not the general spiels about states of consciousness, but certain > comments that did not seem to fit into 'the system' - my ears would always > perk up when I heard one of those. > My view is not based on his behaviour which seems to not have been stellar as > one would imagine what a saint would be like. > > Once experience gets to a point where the teacher becomes less relevant, and > you are basically on your own, I think it advisable to consider what that > means in relation to what is outside the body. Do you want others to have the > same independent freedom of experience or do you want to stay wrapped up in > your own little world of enlightenment experience and all else be dammed > (even if that 'little world is the whole world as you experience it)? > > Are you trying to criticise Barry or trying to clarify his experience of life > (that is, come up with something he finds interesting, that makes him > reflect)? If what you are saying is 'true', it should not matter at all what > Barry says to you, or how he says it, or what I say to you, or how I say it. > If think you know more about some subject than someone else, how do present > that to that person without undermining their growth. This is something that > is harder to do than it seems. On a forum, it is nearly impossible because no > one is a teacher here; no one here is waiting eagerly for pearls of wisdom to > drop from the brain of someone else; we here are not a captive audience in > search of nirvana from our peers, or one particular person here. It is a pit > of lions. So what part of yourself are you willing to part with here, for the > benefit of eternity? > > The negative language flow on this forum is rather high, and seems pretty > equally back and forth to me. The accusation that so-and-so is just repeating > concepts they learned elsewhere is fairly common, but to my mind you have to > use concepts to represent experience and that is a function of how your > thinking mind puts together words and associates them with experiences, and > what the mind has experienced in the past and remembers. Otherwise we would > be mute. > > And there are certain people on this forum who do not post all that much or > talk that much about their experiences, but seem to have some really > interesting depth. Susan (wayback71) comes to mind. > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" > > > > <anartaxius@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Flashes of 'enlightenment' do not involve witnessing, its something > > > > > else entirely. Flashes of CC involve witnessing, but CC is just, as > > > > > Maharishi said (I think I got that from one of Judy's posts), > > > > > 'glorified ignorance'. > > > > > > > > > > Enlightenment is learning how to be in accord with what you > > > > > experience in those flashes, it's growth of understanding and the > > > > > ability to function according to the 'truth' you experience as a > > > > > result of those awake moments, which can be brief or persistent. If > > > > > they are not fully profound, you will fall back, but you keep going > > > > > and may have others. It is almost certain that any particular person > > > > > will not experience a full awakening all at once, and a lot of > > > > > adjustment will be necessary, and a persistence to get at the truth > > > > > of what one is going through. The truth is you do not get anything > > > > > new at all. You are wearing down your fantasies, opinions, your > > > > > constant dreaming. Once that crap gets pruned down enough, life > > > > > begins to be lived naturally. Transcending was part of the crapfest. > > > > > You are not involved with 'transcending'. Meditation of some kind can > > > > > still be useful, but not in the same way it was before. > > > > > > > > > > Writers write. A writer still perfecting their craft will naturally > > > > > feel some lack in their ability, and seek input, to learn more. When > > > > > a would be writer becomes a writer, if they need input for a > > > > > particular project, it will come to hand, they will know what they > > > > > have to do to get that, but they won't at that stage be trying to > > > > > learn how to write better, they will be confident in their writing > > > > > ability. > > > > > > > > > > A spiritual teacher once said, 'For God's sake, graduate.' > > > > > > > > > > So, if you are engaged in a spiritual teaching, when do you leave the > > > > > nest? Real unboundedness removes the tether. Religions are largely > > > > > orphanages where the birds failed to leave the nest, and those > > > > > inmates live their entire lives either arguing about or simply > > > > > believing the information that was to be their ticket to freedom. > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], doctordumbass@ <no_reply@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Share, Barry said something in his reply to you that is pretty > > > > > > confused, and I wanted to clear it up. He states that he has, had > > > > > > long flashes or periods of enlightenment. Wow, what a mess. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just so you know, he is talking about what I call "dirty" > > > > > > witnessing. There is a temporary conditioning of the mind that can > > > > > > be triggered by extra meditation, fasting, etc. where one gets the > > > > > > feeling of being outside of oneself. This is absolutely NOT > > > > > > enlightenment, and never has been. Although some silence may be > > > > > > there, and the physiology mimics a state of silence, the shift in > > > > > > identity has not occurred, the enlightened realization that, "I am > > > > > > not the small self", has not occurred. > > > > > > > > > > > > So Barry, contrary to his confusion has not experienced > > > > > > enlightenment, ever. There are other examples of his confusion when > > > > > > he talks about it, but this one is enough for now, to clearly > > > > > > illustrate the reality. The only way he views enlightenment is as > > > > > > some sort of counter to his identity - he is afraid of it, but > > > > > > doesn't have a clue what it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Share Long <sharelong60@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > turq, I often encounter devoted and long term TMers who > > > > > > > > even currently enjoy spending time with their children > > > > > > > > and grandchildren. As regards living for enlightenment, > > > > > > > > many of the sidhas I know are living for the sake of > > > > > > > > living itself, the richness of it, just riding those > > > > > > > > waves of life. Yes, they engage in a particular activity > > > > > > > > to develop themselves more, but isn't that part of being > > > > > > > > human? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only for those who believe that life is not fulfilled > > > > > > > in every moment, and that there is something "more" to > > > > > > > achieve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, don't you yourself engage in activities to > > > > > > > > develop as a writer? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other than writing itself? Never. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, you sound angry in your last paragraph. Were you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only reason I'm replying is that you are the fourth > > > > > > > person to have gotten their buttons pushed by two little > > > > > > > words, "Fuck enlightenment." When I saw the reactions > > > > > > > in Message View, I honestly had to go back to reread > > > > > > > the original piece to figure out what they were talking > > > > > > > about. There was not a *microgram* of anger in me as > > > > > > > I wrote that. It is simply how I feel about enlight- > > > > > > > enment. It, the reverence for it, and the desire to > > > > > > > attain or realize it simply have no place in my life. > > > > > > > I felt no emotion whatsoever writing those words, > > > > > > > because the concept of enlightenment holds no interest > > > > > > > for me whatsoever. It was as meaningless an aside as > > > > > > > if I'd said, "Fuck ketchup." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If yes, why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant. Someday you should learn that the fact that > > > > > > > someone does not necessarily have to feel the same way > > > > > > > about things as you do. Enlightenment, schmitenment. > > > > > > > I've never seen -- or experienced -- any evidence that > > > > > > > it does anything for anyone other than the person who > > > > > > > is experiencing it. It's a *completely* subjective > > > > > > > experience, of no benefit to any other human being. > > > > > > > Living in hope of "attaining" or "realizing" that? > > > > > > > What a waste of life. But living in hope of doing > > > > > > > something nice for someone else? Now that's something > > > > > > > worth living for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given a choice between spending a little quality time > > > > > > > with Maya or being enlightened, and I'd go for Mayatime > > > > > > > anytime. Given a choice of spending time with any > > > > > > > supposedly enlightened being in history -- including > > > > > > > the original Buddha -- and I'd go for Mayatime anytime. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In all honesty, if you had ever had long flashes or > > > > > > > periods of enlightenment, you might feel differently > > > > > > > about it. I have. I prefer Mayatime, and here-and- > > > > > > > now-time, anytime. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: turquoiseb <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 4:59 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Free Man In Paris, v3.01 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was having dinner with a friend from work last night in a > > > > > > > > small > > > > > > > > restaurant on the Ile St. Louis, and it turned into an > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > opportunity to teach, and to learn. My friend is someone I work > > > > > > > > with -- > > > > > > > > another American ex-pat, a former jazz pianist turned tech > > > > > > > > writer, > > > > > > > > originally from San Francisco but living and working here in > > > > > > > > Europe for > > > > > > > > the last dozen years, so we have a lot in common and lots to > > > > > > > > talk about. > > > > > > > > But we wound up talking about none of those things because two > > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > came in and sat at the small table next to us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were an older woman (but younger than either of us) and a > > > > > > > > young > > > > > > > > girl (who we learned was 12). The girl heard us talking in > > > > > > > > English and > > > > > > > > started a conversation, and I'm glad she did. It turns out she > > > > > > > > is from > > > > > > > > Atlanta, brought here by her grandmother for her first trip to > > > > > > > > Europe. > > > > > > > > The grandmother is doing this because the young girl is an > > > > > > > > aspiring > > > > > > > > artist, and she wanted her granddaughter to have the experience > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > seeing this place and its art close up, in person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And they both turned out to be charming. Both were so open to > > > > > > > > suggestions as to what to see and where to go while in Paris, > > > > > > > > and my > > > > > > > > friend and I both benefited from hearing them talk about the > > > > > > > > things > > > > > > > > they'd seen so far. It was like being able to experience them > > > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > first time ourselves -- all the excitement, all the wonder. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was a charming evening, and I hope that we were able to > > > > > > > > steer both of > > > > > > > > them to some sights and experiences they will enjoy and > > > > > > > > cherish, and > > > > > > > > that will inspire them as they inspired us. My biggest "take > > > > > > > > away" from > > > > > > > > the evening, however, was seeing the joy in the young girl's > > > > > > > > eyes, and > > > > > > > > in her grandmother's at having been able to help put it there, > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > looking forward to being able to do the same thing some day for > > > > > > > > Maya. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fuck enlightenment, or realization, or any of the things that > > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > here seem to "live for." If there is anything that'll inspire > > > > > > > > me to keep > > > > > > > > on keepin' on for another few years, it's the idea of being > > > > > > > > able to show > > > > > > > > Paris and other cool places to Maya for the first time... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
