Re "And, to their credit, these monks were *honest*. They wrote down *exactly* what was presented into evidence, including the statements of the Cathars,":
That's right. The lack of surviving info gives novelists and film-makers a field day for their imaginations to run riot. Another case in point is the work of the second-century bishop Irenaeus. His work Against Heresies - a detailed attack on Gnosticism - was suspected by modern scholars of being a distorted, prejudiced account of his enemies' views - a stitch-up. But the discoveries of the Gnostic texts at Nag Hammadi in 1945 have shown his summaries of the different heresies to be pretty close. ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, <turquoiseb@...> wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Re "the information in question came from JAPANESE history books": > What! Like the denials of wartime atrocities by the Imperial Army > in China and elsewhere? "History is written by the winners." - axiomatic saying often misattributed to Winston Churchill And often history is *rewritten* by the winners. That's a fact of existence. It's not necessarily a "good" fact or a "bad" fact, but it sure as shootin' seems to be a fact. As a case in point, take the historical record of the Cathars, a Christian sect that proliferated in the south of France in the 11th and 12th centuries until it was exterminated by the Catholic Church. Exterminated. Hundreds of thousands of *fellow Christians* burned at the stake, tortured to death, or killed in the Crusades (two of which were aimed *at* the Cathars, not at Jerusalem). What would you expect the historical record -- written by the winners, all of whom were in the back pocket of the Catholic Church -- to say about this sect? Well, the truth is "not much." Most history books brush them aside as an annoying heresy that flourished for a short time in the south of France. And in the historical archives there is nothing to dispute this version, because all written works by or about the Cathars were burned by the Church. Almost all. It turns out that the most accurate picture we have of the Cathars, what they believed, and how they lived comes from within the Church's own ranks. It comes from the written transcripts of the trials of the Inquisition, written by monks. And, to their credit, these monks were *honest*. They wrote down *exactly* what was presented into evidence, including the statements of the Cathars, who were presumed guilty before the trial even began. These "court records" are a veritable historical treasure. Almost all of the serious research on the Cathars comes from them. Almost. There is an existing copy of the Consolomentum, their only sacramental prayer. There is little else to base modern history on. Other than the ruins of their castles, all other traces of them were obliterated by the winners. Now THAT is rewriting history. > ---In fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com mailto:fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com, > turquoiseb@ wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > Re "When the Portuguese and Spanish missionaries arrived > > > in Japan and found that the "heathens" had no fuckin' > > > interest in what these smelly furriners were trying to sell > > > them, they *often* resorted to violence. The Portuguese > > > missionaries occasionally killed people to "make an > > > example" of them, and if that didn't work, they burned > > > entire villages.": > > > > Got a link for this account? Maybe you should update the > > Wikipedia pages as I can't see any mention of these horrors. > > I did mention at the beginning of all of this (at least one > of the times I've told this story) that the information in > question came from JAPANESE history books, did I not? > > It is unlikely that you'd find accounts such as this in > European history books, accounts that portray them as > barbarians who never bathed and resorted to violence > and terror to try to convert others to their religion. > > I have no interest in Wikipedia, other than as a user. > > > Have you read Shusaku Endo's novel "Silence" It's set > > in 16th-century Japan, where missionaries face the > > persecution of Christians by Japanese feudal lords > > who want to drive Christianity out of Japan, and try > > to do so by torturing priests into apostasy. > > I have not, and don't find it likely that I will. I'm telling > you why the Japanese feudal lords might have felt that > doing this was appropriate. > > In Japan at the time, pretty much the worst thing you > could do is to try to convert someone to your religion. > It was an indicator or barbarity, and a complete lack > of civilization as they understood it. Those who did > this were probably considered by the Japanese as less > than human, and in my opinion, rightly. >
