salyavin, I think the key phrase in your response is what you say about inferred knowledge, that it lacks the data to demonstrate. I'd agree that it lacks the data to demonstrate that it's more than just a meaning given by humans. But I think I've driveled something similar before. (-: I don't mind dry and dusty at all. From: salyavin808 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2015 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My two cents
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <sharelong60@...> wrote : hi salyavin, glad you're still here. And now I'm really wishing you were here in Fairfield. Because you'd find many folks who like you find dinosaurs spiritual. Or birds or trees or even plastic bags! This is what I've been trying to convey to you and Curtis too. That many people here have grown beyond a bounded view of human development. Based on their own experiences. Now, the other topic I'd like to address, and this is my response to your post about evolution and science and at a deeper level, what is real. Isn't the determination of what is "real" dependent upon when one takes the photo? IOW, considering the process during which a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, if we take the photo at a certain point in that process, we could say the caterpillar is gone. But is that real? Or said another way, is that the whole picture? The trick is you have to be sure that you get as much of the picture before making statements about accuracy. In the case of a butterfly it would be impossible to fathom it's life until you know all the stages but once you do it's impossible to think there is something else hiding undiscovered. Most aspects of life are the same, what else could there be to mankind in a real sense as opposed to us just making stuff up about funny trips we've had? Spiritual is what things mean to us, not a reflection of any intrinsic value in nature. We infer that an inner experience is a profound understanding of nature but you can't have inferred knowledge, there is no such thing. It's just a guess based on what we want to be true, or lack the objectivity or data to demonstrate otherwise. Science is how we've learned not to fool ourselves. So I'm very wary of spiritual claims of knowledge gained through revelation. With any experience I have, whether during TM or outside of it, I wonder, "Is this the whole picture?" And I think many of us long term TMers have come to realize that there is no static whole picture, that it is an ever unfolding experience of what it means to be a ever unfolding human in an ever unfolding universe. Excellent. Rejecting the guru's teaching is a good first step. Just don't replace it with your own drivel ;-) This experience makes one a scientist, but one who is full of wonder and joy about what is being observed. This is what I sense in you too and what makes me think you'd enjoy a visit to Fairfield. You say "but" I would say that science starts with a sense of wonder and more importantly, a desire to explain what we experience. The idea of the scientist as a dry and dusty individual with no sense of romance is way wide of the mark. Just don't multiply entities unnecessarily (Occam's razor) From: salyavin808 <no_re...@yahoogroups.coma To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2015 12:13 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My two cents ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <noozguru@...> wrote : But it's the Funny Farm Lounge. Weshould expect knee-jerk abusive and often obscene ranting from theinmates. I just don't want to see discussion narrowed to some"sheltered view of spirituality." Yup. "Spiritual" means different things to different people, it isn't just a term for airy-fairy daydreams about awakening into a sea of bliss. I find dinosaurs very spiritual because thinking about the deep past and the sense of time passing and the unpredictable future of life gives me a sense of perspective in my day. A sense of place in the universe, and it's real. On 07/07/2015 01:17 PM, feste37 wrote: I'm mystified as to why youthink that the alternative to having a moderated group asit is evolving here on FFL is a "bliss ninny" group.That's absurd. I am all for vigorous discussion, opposingpoints of view, and honest dialogue. I am against the kindof knee-jerk abusive and often obscene ranting against allthings spiritual that went on here up until the last fewweeks. And for all the abuse Doug has taken, one wouldhardly realize that he has been a good exponent of exactlywhat you are calling for in your post: a discussion of"where things have gone" in the TMO and where they aregoing. Many of his comments and insights over the last fewyears have been very astute. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <noozguru@...>wrote : As faras I'm concerned Rick set the"community standards" as he defines it on the headerfor thegroup. If you don't like them then start yet anotherbliss ninnygroup. Those seem to be extremely popular and longlived. :-D I've been online since the early 1980s. I've seenmany a BBS comeand go. I've seen heavy handed moderators come and gotoo. Seemsthat late comers have a creepy idea of what moderationis about. TM is just dime store yoga taught at Neumann-Marcusprices. itwas better when it wasn't so pretentious but then mostpeopledidn't know that much about yoga back then. We'vecome a longways. This is a good forum to discuss where thingshave gone evenif it riles TBs. On 07/07/2015 11:38 AM,feste37 wrote: Ithink it's part of whatmoderating is about. For example, I often read thecomments section in articles in the Guardian. Onerecentcomment got deleted, with the following message: "This comment was removed by a moderator becauseit didn'tabide by our communitystandards. Replies may also be deleted." This is very common and I have no objection tosomethinglike it being implemented at FFL. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,<noozguru@...>wrote : Andthat'snot what "moderating" isabout. It's for extreme circumstances whichareusually rare. Youshould never give moderation over to a techilliterate. It justmakes them a laughing stock. Perhaps it's time to create an FFL-Ex YahooGroup. ;-) On 07/07/2015 11:13 AM,salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,<no_re...@yahoogroups.com>wrote : It'sverysimple, Duv. Thereare now some community standards to beobservedwhenposting to this group. There is nothingremarkable aboutthat. It is long overdue. Rubbish, MJ got kicked fornothingthathasn't been said a million timesbefore, sowhat ifBuck decides it's suddenly beyond thepale tohave anopinion he doesn't like? That's all itis.Sheeropportunism and hide behind theguidelines. Wearen'tchildren for god's sake. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,<no_re...@yahoogroups.com>wrote : It'sonyouRICK ARCHER. You have not even oncecomehere and explained why you are okaywithwhat Dougis doing here. It's as if you said, "Let's fuck uptheplace andsee what comes out of the ashes." Did yousay that? We don't know, and that's on you. Why? We deserve YOUR ANSWER. We'vesupportedyourownership here for over a decade. We'vealwayshonored your forbearance and wisdom,butnow, whenwe're all adrift, you don't show up. WHAT IN THE FUCKY FUCK FUCK are youthinking, Rick? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,<curtisdeltablues@...>wrote : Just as Maharishi said,"themovementbelongs to those who move"(slavelabor ofcourse) FFL belongs to thosewhopost. TodayI see two valuablecontributors,Michael andXeno ! have been cannedfollowingBarry's"first shoe dropped." I want to weigh in thatIoppose theway content is beingexamined,evaluated,judged here, and believesincerelythat thepower to ban posters is inthe wronghands. First of all the Yahoo"guidelines" arejust that. They coverYahoo's backside andare not meant to be Vediclaws to beenforced. Obviously if theycaredaboutthese enough to enforce themitwould havehappened long ago whenthings werereallyriled up on FFL during theinfamousreign ofthe 3 Rs. The idea that thisplacehasbecome much worse is afabrication.FFL haslightened up considerably inthelast fewyears. There was no problemto besolvedthat needed this kind ofcrackdown.And theyare too vague to beguidelines, itbasicallysays, do what you want onyour sitesbecausedefining limits is too hard.Theyhave usedairy platitudes and theseare notobjectiverules in any sense of theword. Itis a mootpoint, Yahoo does not care,it is upto us. Concerning Feste'spoint aboutXenotrying to hurt that guy inthe realworld, Ibelieve this is an importantpointtoconsider. This is the onlylevelwhere Ibelieve banning isappropriate. So Irereadthe post a few times andnoticedthat thereare no names mentioned. Thismeansthat youwould have to be a regularreader ofthissite to even understand whathe isreferringto. And if someone is thatfar upFFL'sbutt, they already knowabout hisactivities. I even knewabout histrip and Idon't give a S. Moreimportantly hedid notrepeat linking his name totheoffense so itcould be picked up by searchenginesas aconnections so it wasunsearchable.This isimportant because whenpeople cameafter meand got canned for it, itwas afterrepeatedoffenses. One or two wouldhaveslipped bythe radar but they insistedonmaking it abig deal through relentlessrepe!tition. In all the hoopla and overreactionwe seemto miss Xeno's point. Thisbehavior isexactlywhat he nailed it as,hypocrisy. Itshows anamazing degree of lack of selfawareness notto realize that this moderatorisperpetuatingthe exact thing he fears fromthemovement:judging adult behavior andfree willbysubjective standards and thenmetingout thepunishment of exclusion fromthe groupfor thecontrived "offenses." Xeno was putting his fingerin theeye ofhypocrisy and did it withoutusingnames orjacking up the search engines.It wasa nobleact IMO and losing him fromthis forumis ahuge content loss for athoughtfulperspective. I would challengeanyoneto matchme post for post ofcontributions hehas madeintellectually to this forumand youcan showme equally thoughtful postsfrom thatotherguy with his finger on thetrigger. Michael is also a loss to thesite.Stephenmentioned that he doesn't likeposterswith an"agenda." The important aspectofagenda isthat the motive is a hiddenone, notthat itexpresses a strong personalPOV.Michael wastransparent about his motivesforpostinghere. He represented a strongPOV andI valuedit. I wish there was a personwhorepresentedthe movement's side aspassionately.Thatwould make for some greatconversations. Theonly person who used to fillin forthat rolewas N. But he was so far frommainstreammovement thinking and Englishwas asecondlanguage so he was left onlywithpersonalattacks of which I was thetarget ofmany foryears. I never thought heshould bebanned forthat. I thought the freedom toexpresshimselfdamned him just fine. FFL is only as good as it'scontributor'scontent. Losing Barry, XenoandMichael is aloss to the site whether youagreewith themor not. If the ban had beenfor Judy,I couldhave written everything justthe same.Generative people, willing toput timeinto t!his site and create contentmakes thisavaluable place to read. Manyof thepeople,who are behind this changehave beenverylight on detailed, thoughtfulcontentover theyears. Provocative peopleinspire usto writehere. It PROVOKES us. It oftentakesthat kindof provocation to decide totake timefrom ourbusy lives to share ideas witha bunchofstrangers. Our moderator is reacting asif thisis hisown intellectual fiefdom andthebannings sofar have represented hispersonaloffense atposts that he should havetaken careof byoffering his own clearlystatedopposingopinion on. He cut theconversationshortbecause he has never shown anyabilityorinterest in this area ofdetailed backandforth discussions here. So heistaking outthose who do contribute one byone. Ido notshare the values representedby thecurrentmoderator and believe thatthis isalreadyhaving a chilling affect oncontenthere. Itis limiting the value of thissite asanintellectual resource for me.I amgoing tosend this post in an email toRick inhopesthat he will rescue thisvaluableresourcefrom the direction it isgoing. 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