Marek, All my speculation was just that. I'm just not buying the magic box. After that, it is anyone's guess!
Thanks for thinking about this topic, it really interests me. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Comment below: > > ** > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > I can always count on an interesting, reasoned response from you > > Marek! Thanks. Really excellent discussion of Guru Dev's private > > funding. > > > > In my own case, my life of privilege made it easier for me to > renounce > > it and become a monk for MMY. I didn't really understand the hard > > earned value of the life my father had provided. That perspective > has > > been corrected big time in the ensuing decades! I give GD less > > credit for feeling as if he didn't need to worry about money, that > it > > would come to him. Lots of rich kids believe this. Most of the > > fulltime people I worked with in Sidhaland came from good families > > with plenty of cash. It can make you more confident to take the > risk > > of a road less traveled. As I have said before, I am not impressed > > with his minimalistic camping skills. I know guys who pull that off > > here too. > > > > I view this magic money claim as significant. It may even be the > > first thread in unraveling a carefully constructed mythology about > his > > life. I think that the very act of using the claim in an advocacy > > piece in advance of his visit is a blatant manipulation of readers > who > > were in no way able to confirm or refute such a claim. In fact even > > asking the question would be viewed as an assault on his holiness. > > This kind of claim is an obvious con and I do believe that Guru Dev > > was in control of his press, so I doubt it was just MMY doing > > something stupid without his approval. But it cuts to the quick of > > what we think about his integrity so it is important. > > > > For the story about his integrity to be meaningful one has to > believe > > that he did in fact have a magical source of money as claimed. > There > > were bills to pay in the ashram and I am not sure what exactly is > > being claimed here. It is purposely vague and leaves the > > superstitions credulity of the reader to fill in the blanks. That > its > > intention is to prove by a physical claim that Guru Dev has magical > > powers is clear. It is one of the tools MMY uses to try to convince > > the reader that they must view GD as a special magical person. Like > > the claims of Jesus' miracles in the Bible, they play on our > > confidence in how the world works and uses it to show that he is > > different from you and I. Like the Bible, if you decide that the > > physical proof claims lack validity, you can still believe if you > want > > and may may even construct a "reason" why such proof is not needed. > > But the writer's intention is to use a claim about the physical > world > > to increase credibility. It engages the part of our critical > thinking > > that would rightly be impressed if such a claim was backed by good > > evidence. > > > > Let me put it a different way. I smell a rat here. I believe that > > MMY was lying about the money thing. We are left with an absurd > > implication that Guru Dev is a magic money maker. I think that this > > was a show to build confidence at first. Later when a person was > > sufficiently hooked, MMY shook them down as efficiently as he has > done > > his own movement all these years. They no doubt welcomed the > fleecing > > and felt special from it. I think MMY has got more than a little PT > > Barnum in him and I am getting an idea where he may have learned > it. > > I think it does tarnish GD's rep for being so pure and holy to see > > through a such a ploy. I just need to see the one time that a > person > > bends spoons with magic to conclude that I have seen enough of their > > "real magic". Perhaps he felt the end justified the means, but I > say > > the means suck. You don't have to tell lies to get people to think > of > > you in a spiritual way do you? > > > > Isn't it funny how MMY uses a claim about material conquest as his > > credibility in the spiritual area. It reminds me of those wealth > > preachers who use their flamboyant riches as a way to attract people > > and convince them of their special religious powers. Of course free > > public lectures are a great way to expand the believer base. I see > > some spiritual people do this today. They make a big fuss out of > > refusing money at first, but then they let you give a lot more > later > > when you are an insider. It is a tactic for increasing confidence > and > > is a part of most good confidence games. A good con knows that > > making a show of not taking the small stuff sets you up for the real > > killing later. > > > > I can hear MMY talking really quickly here: " Of course as you know > > his Divinity doesn't take any donations, but he does let true > devotees > > fund their own projects. Here are a few projects that you can fund > > without giving any donations." What do ya bet that there was an > > elaborate way that non-donations got collected? > > > > Seeing this use of ridiculous hype makes me much less apt to see > Guru > > Dev in an innocent light. Since he went from "camper" to being > > worshiped as a god, I think he just might have gotten sick of > sleeping > > outside. > > > > Thanks Marek. You make using one of my posts worth it! > > > **snip to end** > > Thanks, Curtis, hut I think you're making some assumptive leaps here > that aren't wholly supported by the evidence available. First of > all, the documentation that Guru Dev actually had signs posted about > his ashrams, including Jyotir Math, re his refusal to accept > donations seem real enough. Secondly, there does seem to be ample > evidence that he did live the life of an ascetic from 9 or 10 till > the time he was made Shankaracharya when he was 72. Certainly, that > doesn't mean that he always lived in caves and, India being India, > the fact that he was recognized early on as being an enlightened > saint had to mean that whenever he chose to come in out of the > jungles or the rain he could easily stay at any number of devotees' > home (and the bios speak of affluent devotees), and most likely did. > He probably did not have to, and very well might not have, lived the > lived of a penniless sadhu for very much of his pre-Shankaracharya > period. > > Nevertheless, the bios and ancillary anecdotal evidence all testify > to a personality that was seriously focussed in spiritual sadhana and > for a long time (20 years) refused the comfort and power that being > Shankaracharya would have provided. Moreover, his eventual > acceptance was also characterized as reluctant. In this context (and > maybe others would argue in other contexts, as well) Maharishi may > not be the most credible or unbiased source, but it does seem that > Guru Dev continued to live a spartan life even as Shankaracharya > according to that press release. And others have said similarly. > > Furthermore, Guru Dev's personality seemed authentically a > renunciate's, and in the most traditional style. The likelihood that > he truly did not want to be involved with management decisions (and > actually wasn't) isn't unreasonable. And a personality like > Maharishi would be a natural fit to take on those type of tasks; he > would have been drawn to them as the most natural way to be of > service. You're 100% correct about Maharishi being totally into PR; > it's something that he naturally does, though clearly seems out-of- > synch with what lots of folk feel would be more effective. > > The scenarios you speculate about, re Brahmachari Mahesh doing the > behind-the-scenes lobbying for rupees as a backhanded way of > obtaining donations that Guru Dev was publically refusing, is more of > a projection backwards in time of a contemporary and critical view of > Maharishi, and wholly unsupported by the evidence as to Guru Dev. > > I have confidence (for whatever that's worth to you) that Br. Mahesh > was a totally real guy just sincerely in love with Guru Dev and he > was just doing anything and everything he could to show him how much > that was so. One of the emotions I cherish the most is that > wonderful sense of surrender -- of giving it up and giving your all -- > and knowing that it's right and all good and that you're saved. It's > the same in many religious conversions and spiritual traditions and > such a part of India's history, of course. I'd expect that many > here, though they no longer experience that emotion and don't expect > that there is anyone or anything that could evoke it again, still > remember it's intensity and unique configuration. I'm sure that true > bhakti was underlying Maharishi's intitial career and lasted long > into the 70s. I don't know, maybe it still does to some degree or > maybe even large measure. No way of knowing. > > Anyway, that's some more grist for the mill. Thanks for the > discussion, as usual. > > Marek >
