John, I have been a schoolteacher also, so I am trained in having an extended ability to understand. However this Finale list is kind of a meta-list for musicians from very diverse backgrounds. Hence I consider it kind of dangerous to let terms, which basically are nonsense, pass by unnoticed.
Some composer not coming from brass instruments might wonder why no brass players respond to the term of octave key in discussions about their instruments’ potentials. I know that the oboe has an octave key, but the clarinet doesn’t. Klaus --- On Tue, 5/11/10, John Howell <john.how...@vt.edu> wrote: > From: John Howell <john.how...@vt.edu> > Subject: Re: [Finale] Slightly OT: Tuba Transposition > To: finale@shsu.edu > Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 6:21 AM > Hi, Klaus. I believe that he > was saying that without a compensating system the lowest > notes combining all 4 valves will be sharp, similar to the > fact that on a Bb/F trombone the 7 positions become only 6 > on the F side. I doubt that he literally meant an > "octave key," but having played a 3-valve compensating Eb > tuba I understood exactly what he meant. And it had > nothing to do with partials, just with adding tubing by > adding valves. > > John > > > At 8:30 PM -0700 5/10/10, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre wrote: > > Sad that you persist, because you reveal ignorance > about the partial system of brass instruments. Your upper > reference notes are played as third partials. Your lower > reference notes are played as second partials. > > > > There is a fifth between the 2nd and 3rd partials. The > 4th valve is one third of the (theoretical) length of the > open bugle and lowers the instrument the interval of a > fourth. The sum of a fifth and a fourth happens to be an > octave but that doesn't make the 4th valve an octave valve. > The visual proof is, that an octave valve would have to be > as long as the open bugle. It isn't so. > > > > Klaus > > > > --- On Tue, 5/11/10, Williams, Jim <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu> > wrote: > > > >> From: Williams, Jim <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu> > >> Subject: Re: [Finale] Slightly OT: Tuba > Transposition > >> To: "finale@shsu.edu" > <finale@shsu.edu> > >> Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 5:02 AM > >> To me it is an octave key in that low > >> register. > >> Look at the fingering: > >> Eb 1 low eb 1-4 > >> d 1-2 low d 1-2-4 > >> Db 2-3 low db 2-3-4 > >> c 1-3 low c 1-3-4 > >> B 1-2-3 low b 1-2-3-4 > >> So from eb down, pressing 4 lowers the pitch > an octave > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all > the typos. > >> > >> On May 10, 2010, at 10:40 PM, "Klaus > Smedegaard Bjerre" > >> <yorkmaster...@yahoo.com > >> > >> > wrote: > >> > >> > The Franco-Flemish band tradition > writes for Eb and > >> BBb tubas and > for euphonium/bass > trombone in transposed bass clef. > >> > > >> > On compensating low brasses the 4th > valve is not an > >> octave key. It > is a fourth valve, > as in the interval of a fourth. > >> Like with a > compensating horn the > 4th valve loop is rerouted > >> through the valves, > and > compensating loops are added to improve the > >> pitch. > >> > > >> > The pitches of the two notes right > above the open > >> pedal note are > sharp on > compensating instruments unless one has a > >> main tuning slide > trigger like I > have had mounted on my YEP-641 comp > >> euphonium or a > push rod like on > my Marzan comp euph. Hirsbrunner and > >> Miraphone have > issued models with > triggers on the valve slides. > >> > > >> > For technical reasons it is very > complicated to apply > >> triggers to > compensating tubas, > so I don't have triggers on my > >> compers in F, Eb, > >> > and BBb. The compensating F tubas > are extremely > >> rare and were only > made in 1923, > 1961 and a some point of time before > >> 2000. My sample i > >> > s from 1923 and it was one of these > Vaughan Williams > >> wrote his conce > >> > rt for. There also are a few 3 valve > compensating > >> tubas in CC, but I > >> > haven't come by one yet. > >> > > >> > Klaus > >> > > >> > --- On Tue, 5/11/10, Williams, Jim > <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu> > > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> From: Williams, Jim <jwilli...@franklincollege.edu> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Finale] Slightly OT: > Tuba > >> Transposition > >> >> To: "finale@shsu.edu" > >> <finale@shsu.edu> > >> >> Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 3:38 > AM > >> >> More tuba trivia: > >> >> A four-valve non-compensating tuba > is not fully > >> chromatic > >> >> in the low > >> >> register. > >> >> With an Eb tuba, 4 valves, no > compensating, low a > >> is 2-4, > >> >> ab is 1-4, g > >> >> is 2-3-4, gb is 1-3-4 (and sharp), > f is 1-2-3-4 > >> and very > >> >> sharp and low > >> >> e natural doesn't exist. For a BBb > tuba with 4 > >> valves, move > >> >> everything > >> >> down a fourth. > >> >> With 4 valves and the automatic > compensating > >> system, tubas > >> >> are fully > >> >> chromatic down to the pedal note > and the 4th valve > >> is an > >> >> octave key. > >> >> So with the compensator, on an Eb > tuba, low a > >> natural is > >> >> 2-4, ab > > > >> is1-4, g is 1-2-4, gb is 2-3-4, f > is 1-3-4, and > >> low e > >> >> natural is > >> >> 1-2-3-4 and still a bit sharp. > Again, for BBb > >> tubas with 4 > >> >> valves and > >> >> compensation, move everything down > a fourth. > >> >> In British brass bands, all the > tubas and > >> euphoniums are > >> >> four-valves > >> >> with the compensating system. > >> >> In your case, it depends upon the > band. > >> >> The compensating 4-valve tuba in > BBb weighs as > >> much as a > >> >> Citroen. > >> >> I could also say it sounds like one > but I won't. > >> >> Right now I am going to pick up my > compensating > >> four-valve > >> >> euphonium > >> >> and practice it instead of > posting. > >> >> > >> >> Sent from my iPhone, so please > pardon all the > >> typos. > >> >> > >> >> On May 10, 2010, at 9:20 PM, "John > Howell" <john.how...@vt.edu> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> At 5:15 PM -0700 5/10/10, Ryan > wrote: > >> >>>> When a writing for tuba, > the part should > >> be > >> >> written at sounding > >> >>>> (concert) > >> >>>> pitch, correct? If the > performer is using > >> an Eb > >> >> tuba, they don't > >> >>>> need a > >> >>>> transposed part, do they? > >> >>>> Here's the situation, a > group in France > >> wants some > >> >> of my band music. > >> >>>> However, they use Eb horns > and Eb tubas. > >> No > >> >> problem to transpose > >> >>>> the horn > >> >>>> parts for them, but I > thought that Eb > >> Tubists read > >> >> concert pitch > >> >>>> parts and > >> >>>> just learn different > fingerings for the > >> notes. Any > >> >> low notes that > >> >>>> are out of > >> >>>> range (Ab and below) are > automatically > >> played an > >> >> octave higher. > >> >>>> Perhaps in France the > current practice is > >> >> different? Would the > >> >>>> transposition > >> >>>> be similar to that of the > Bari Sax? > >> >>>> It's a community group and > I don't think > >> the > >> >> volunteer person (the > >> >>>> "librarian," I think) I'm > dealing with is > >> >> particularly musically > >> >>>> inclined. > >> >>>> Also, I'm sure that some > things are > >> getting lost > >> >> in translation. > >> >>>> Anyone have any idea what > they're looking > >> for? > >> >>> > >> >>> There are questions you need to > ask, or else > >> produce > >> >> alternate parts > >> >>> for. > >> >>> > >> >>> Orchestral and band tubas in > the U.S. all read > >> from > >> >> bass clef at > >> >>> concert pitch, yes. > British brass band > >> tubas, > >> >> however, read from > >> >>> transposed parts in TREBLE > CLEF. A > >> French band > >> >> could need either > >> >>> kind of part; it isn't possible > to guess in > >> >> advance. And yes, it > >> >>> would similar to a bari sax > transposed part. > >> >>> > >> >>> As to the low range, it depends > entirely on > >> whether > >> >> the Eb tubas are > >> >>> 3-valve or 4-valve. And > you can't guess > >> that > >> >> without asking, either. > >> >>> With a 3-valve Eb tuba A > natural is the lowest > >> clear > >> >> note, but notes > >> >>> below that, down to the pedal > Eb, can be > >> forced by an > >> >> experienced > >> >>> player--not fun and not a great > sound. With a > >> >> 4-valve Eb that range > >> >>> is filled in and possible, but > it's getting > >> pretty low > >> >> for an Eb bass > >> >>> as opposed to a BBb > contrabass. > >> >>> > >> >>> John > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of > Music > >> >>> Virginia Tech Department of > Music > >> >>> College of Liberal Arts & > Human Sciences > >> >>> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. > 24061-0240 > >> >>> Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax > (540) 231-5034 > >> >>> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > >> >>> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > >> >>> > >> >>> "We never play anything the > same way once." > >> >> Shelly Manne's definition > >> >>> of jazz musicians. > >> >>> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Finale mailing list > >> >>> Finale@shsu.edu > >> >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> Finale mailing list > >> >> Finale@shsu.edu > >> >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > Finale mailing list > >> > Finale@shsu.edu > >> > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> Finale mailing list > >> Finale@shsu.edu > >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly > Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > _______________________________________________ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
