On 27/01/2011, at 5:35 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
> Hi Matthew,
>
>> Do you ever use things like "Cadd2" to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write
>> below, you would write C(9)?
>
> Yes, "C (add2)" = C D E G. "C(9)" looks too much like "C9", which would of
> course be C E (G) Bb D.
>
>> And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason
>> for that? Is it not used in jazz very much?
>
> These days, altered 5ths are treated as any other alteration, hence "C7(#5)",
> CMA7(#5), etc. Back in the day, you used to see a lot of chord symbols like
> "C+7" but nowadays that's considered awkward (and potentially confusing).
> Similarly, #11ths used to generally be notated as b5ths, until people noticed
> that the bass players were still happily playing natural fifths in their bass
> lines against those chords.
>
>> With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd?
>
> No. The natural 11th is only available as an extension on minor chords (mi7,
> mi(MA7), mi7(b5), and the third is not omitted.
>
> What I think you are talking about is something different, a suspended
> dominant chord, where the 4th *replaces* the third. For instance:
>
> Root - P4 - (P5) - mi7 = 7sus -- C F G Bb = C7sus
>
> If you also want the ninth, that's "C9sus" and if you want the 9th and 13th,
> it's "C13sus." (You will sometimes see C9sus chords written as "C11" but
> that's poor practice, IMO.)
>
>> (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If
>> the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into
>> the symbols?
>
> Yes -- although in that case the symbol would be 7sus (add3) -- C7sus (add3)
> = C F (G) Bb E.
>
> Suspended triads are just "sus" -- Csus = C F G. You'll sometimes see C D G
> written as "Csus2" but I prefer "C5 (add2)." ("C5" is more of a rock symbol,
> indicating a open fifth, or power chord -- C5 = just C G.)
>
>> Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale
>> after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is
>> fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the
>> written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though
>> there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out
>> loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out.
>
> I've never tried Finale's tools but it doesn't surprise me that they give
> poor results.
>
> Cheers,
>
> - DJA
> -----
> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org
>
>
>
> On 27 Jan 2011, at 1:14 AM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote:
>
>> Thanks Darcy and all,
>>
>> I've always wondered how the minor-major chord was indicated, as well as the
>> whole added-note thing. Makes a lot of sense.
>>
>> Do you ever use things like "Cadd2" to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write
>> below, you would write C(9)?
>>
>> And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason
>> for that? Is it not used in jazz very much?
>>
>> With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? (Presumably
>> if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is
>> actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols?
>>
>> Thanks again, it's very useful, esp coming from a more figured-bass centric
>> world.
>>
>> Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale
>> after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is
>> fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the
>> written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though
>> there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out
>> loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>>
>> On 27/01/11 4:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
>>> Hi Matt,
>>>
>>> As Chuck said, I typed this quickly -- too quickly, in fact. Please allow
>>> me to correct some typos:
>>>
>>>> Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb =
>>>
>>> I was missing the chord symbol at the end there -- should be:
>>>
>>> Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = *Cø [or Cmi7(b5)]*
>>>
>>>> Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13
>>>
>>> Typo there on the seventh -- should be MA7, of course:
>>>
>>> Root + MA3 (+ P5) + *MA7* + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> - DJA
>>> -----
>>> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26 Jan 2011, at 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Matt,
>>>>
>>>> Close:
>>>>
>>>> E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5)
>>>>
>>>> (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically
>>>> above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.)
>>>>
>>>> I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you
>>>> could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine.
>>>>
>>>> But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the
>>>> basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th:
>>>>
>>>> Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7
>>>> Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7
>>>> Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7)
>>>> Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7
>>>>
>>>> The natural fifth can be added to all of the above chords, but it's not
>>>> essential.
>>>>
>>>> Fully diminished and half-diminshed chords require a (flattened) 5th in
>>>> addition to the 3rd and 7th:
>>>>
>>>> Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb =
>>>> Root + m3 + dim5 + dim7 = o7 [or dim7] -- C Eb Gb Bbb = Co7
>>>>
>>>> On MA7 and mi(MA)7 chords, you can substitute the 6th for the seventh --
>>>> this is frequently done to avoid a clash when the root is in the melody:
>>>>
>>>> Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA6 = 6 -- C E (G) A = C6
>>>> Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA6 = mi6 -- C Eb (G) A = Cmi6
>>>>
>>>> Natural extensions are the 9th and 13th -- they can be indicated by
>>>> replacing "7" with "9" or "13." The 13th implies the presence of a 9th.
>>>> For instance:
>>>>
>>>> Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 = MA9 -- C E (G) B D = CMA9
>>>> Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13
>>>>
>>>> On minor chords, the 11th is also available as a natural extension (and
>>>> implies the presence of a 9th):
>>>>
>>>> Root + mi3 (+ P5) + mi7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11 -- C Eb (G) Bb D F = Cmi11
>>>> Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11(MA7) -- C Eb (G) B D F =
>>>> Cmi11(MA7)
>>>>
>>>> Alterations include #5ths, b9ths, #9ths, #and 11ths. Alterations are most
>>>> often applied to dominant seventh chords. They are listed in parentheses.
>>>> Multiple alterations are usually stacked vertically, with the highest
>>>> alteration on top. (That's hard to do in email without resorting to
>>>> fixed-width fonts, so I won't do that here -- I'll just list them
>>>> horizontally.)
>>>>
>>>> Root + MA3 + mi7 + aug9 = 7(#9) -- C E Bb D# = C7(#9)
>>>> Root + MA3 + mi7+ mi9 + aug11 + MA13 = 13 (#11 b9) = C E Bb Db F# A = C13
>>>> (#11 b9)
>>>>
>>>> There's obviously a lot more to it, but the above outlines the basic
>>>> principles and should allow you to generate understandable chord symbols
>>>> for most commonly-used jazz chords.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> - DJA
>>>> -----
>>>> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 26 Jan 2011, at 10:47 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So, something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?)
>>>>>
>>>>> (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Matthew
>>>>>
>>>>> On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote:
>>>>>>> Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know
>>>>>>> of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it
>>>>>>> will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks in advance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matthew
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cd
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