Dear Karl, Unlike physical measures like the meter, information (probabilistic entropy) can be defined mathematically. Thus, one would not need an etalon in Paris. Similarly, I would consider the natural numbers as a special case. The definition can be kept more abstract. With best wishes, Loet _____
Loet Leydesdorff Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR) Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681 <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; <http://www.leydesdorff.net/> http://www.leydesdorff.net/ Now available: <http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581129378> The Knowledge-Based Economy: Modeled, Measured, Simulated. 385 pp.; US$ 18.95 <http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581126956> The Self-Organization of the Knowledge-Based Society; <http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581126816> The Challenge of Scientometrics _____ From: karl javorszky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:44 PM To: Loet Leydesdorff Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] about fis discussions Hi Loet, we agree. The proposition is to use the "natural constants" as a distribution. The distribution - the etalon, encased in Paris - to serve as the basis of counting how many bits appear, is in the simplest case the natural numbersy themselves. Yes, I agree to your assertion that information reveals itself in the form of bits within a distribution. My proposition is to add to this thought of yours the following: let us take the natural numbers and their distribution (to be more precise: the distribution among the cuts that dissect units of the natural numbers) as the basis for the actual counting of the xtent of information. We say basically the same. My suggestion isto use the natural numbers as providers of distributions. (Exactement: the cuts among the summands of natural numbers as providers of informatioin, as standard). Hope you can accept this suggestion. Friendly: Karl 2007/6/6, Loet Leydesdorff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Dear Karl, The expected information content of a distribution can be measured, for example, in bits of information. Does one need more than this for defining information? With best wishes, Loet _____ Loet Leydesdorff Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681 <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; <http://www.leydesdorff.net/> http://www.leydesdorff.net/ _____ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of karl javorszky Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 7:23 PM To: Pedro Marijuan Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] about fis discussions Dear FIS, Pedro is - as is his habitude - too modest again. He has through 15 years of patient work nurtured into being a discussion forum about the fundametals of information, as a general, basic, philosophical topic. To my knowledge, this endeavour is unique. Even more startling appears to some that this group does indeed offer an explanation to what information basically is. This group has come up with a proposition about information which is quite stringent: "information is that what we neglect as we conduct an addition". There is no other entrant on the field. Aside FIS no one has even tried to give a good definition of the term "information". The one-sentence definition points to a taboo: We were told as we were young that we have to disregard the difference between 3+3 and 4+2. This subtle something about which we were told it is irrelevant turns out not to be that irrelevant after all. FIS can be a beacon of technical innovation if the assembled group dares to discuss the taboo. The atmosphere here is suitable for a discussion without prejudices and with a deep disregard for established conventions and norms: and this is the main contribution to the work of the orchester by its patient and encouraging dirigent, Pedro. Looking forward the next discussions. Karl 2007/6/6, Pedro Marijuan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Dear FIS colleagues, During last five years we have had quite many discussion sessions in a row (for the new parties arrived recently, there are a couple of web sites where messages are systematically archived--see below). As suggested by some discussants, having some long pause was needed --particularly by myself. During this interim, a refurbishing of the web pages has been planned, and also some way to organize the discussion topics, including the formation of a fis board. Well, we will see how things result but, in any case, the list should maintain its peculiar exploratory freedom and spontaneity. Ideas for next sessions will be very welcome. Preferably, proposed topics have to be accompanied by an invitee external to the list (we need novelty!) acting as a chair of the session and producing the kickoff text, with maybe a fis member accompanying as co-chair. Fifteen years from now FIS started its public activities. Michael Conrad and me, with the cooperation of Koichiro Matsuno and Tom Stonier, had attempted a conference in Toledo (Spain) for the summer of 1992, and a couple of preparatory newsletters on "foundations of information science" were circulated in photocopies (with curious contributions of people like Ramon Margalef, Gordon Scarrott, Rick Welch, Fernando Carvalho, etc.). Finally, we got our first FIS conference in Madrid in 1993, thanks to the involvement of Fivos Panetsos. And the rest of the story can be followed more or less in scholarly literature and the webs. During these years it was sad that Gordon, Tom, Michael and Ray passed away... great scientists, and great persons. Well, we are now close to 170 in the list, and a Science of Information Institute promoted by some fis members is almost ready to start public activities. Indeed a reflection on FIS itself would be convenient at the time being, and probably it will take place amongst the next sessions (but freewheeling comments on our enterprise can be posted perfectly during this pause). Overall, with more than 2700 messages exchanged and half dozen real and e-conferences convened, we have done a pretty intense collective work during all these years. However, it is amazing that the fundamental question of What is Information? has kept its freshness and initial appeal almost intact! cordial regards Pedro http://webmail.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/ http://fis.icts.sbg.ac.at/mailings/ _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> http://webmail.unizar.es/mailman/listinfo/fis
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