I really appreciate Beth coming to my aid and providing an example of what I am doing, and it may be a help if I fill it out. What I would add, in rather schematic explanation of the Greece/ China comparison is that the relation of the Greeks to stone and of the Chinese to earth, seems to depend on several factors. One is that stone is as predominant element of the natural environment in Greece as soil is in China. Another is that the importance of stone in Greece was magnified because the defence of a city's land was so vital. Since defence depended both on formations of armed men and on stone walls it became natural to them to see the one as like the other. In China, on the other hand, what people had on their mind in the Yellow River valley was not defence but fertility, which depended on the circulation of moisture giving life to the soil; so soil was as central to life in China as stone was in Greece. One illustration of the importance of the different approaches to these materials in the two areas is the difference between Chinese and Greek medicine. The Chinese saw the circulation of the spirit chi in the body as just like the circulation of humidity in the air and soil and so treated the body using non-invasive techniques like acupuncture. The Greeks saw the body as like stone, which is why they liked sculpting the body through surgery, cutting bits off and out of people. The key to the explanatory framework in both cases is neural plasticity. Because the Greeks and the Chinese were exposed to different environments they had different brains. At the risk of excessively compressing an argument which potentially involves the consideration of innumerable factors I would like to think that the relation between brain and environment is so constant across time and place that we can talk about it being regulated by principles, principles of neural formation. I hope that helps. John> Hi everyone, > > I saw John Onians, who writes below, speak at a conference here in > Australia and was impressed by his work. I didn't want his message to pass > unremarked because there's much underneath that relates to this > discussion. > > Onians explores how physical materials are part of the loop between > thought, expression and introspection. For example, the Greeks saw young > men as a barrier between themselves and external warring states, so their > images of young men are made from the same materials as Greek walls and > buildings - marble. Whereas in ancient China, young men were seen as a > resource so their images were made out of the materials associated with > food collection and earth - ceramics. > > I am simplifying, but if I understand correctly, Pedro, Sonu and John > intersect at different parts of the same process. I am interested how we > establish causal reasoning in stories. Through the lens of storymaking, > the 'cognits' Pedro speaks of form networks that channel according to the > sorts of principles that Sonu has posted. The symmetry principle includes > a need for introspection, which can manifest in art - structures that seem > to reflect what we know. From my perspective, this means the causal > equivalences formed in the mind are expressed as connections between > fabrics that are seen as equivalent. This would make metaphor a concrete > embodiment of something happening at a cognitive level. And stories too, > which Mark Turner, in cognitive science, says reflects cognitive process. > > John notes that testing is needed. Ted Goranson, who also posts to this > list, and myself have been isolating some of of these principles for > application in artificial intelligence. Materials (which we think of as > residue) is included. Like others who have recently posted, this topic > converges on my area of research, so I will follow the discussion with > great interest. > > Cheers, > > Beth. > >> Hi,everyone, >> I have been listening in and behaving myself till now, taking great >> interest in the discussion of big issues. Now I want to step in because >> with Ramachandran's 'laws' the big issues are coming down to specifics >> in >> my area. For the last fifteen years I have been trying to use >> neuroscience to help understand the history of art and have been >> delighted >> to discover that neuroscientists are similarly engaged, following a two >> and a half thousand year tradition. Indeed, last year I published a book >> with Yale reviewing that history 'Neuroarthistory. From Aristotle and >> Pliny to Baxandall and Zeki'. It is fascinating that big thinkers have >> been trying to formulate laws-or at least principles-in this area. But >> of >> course nobobody until today had enough knowledge of the brain to explore >> the neurological foundations of those principles. Now I believe we do, >> and my next two books will endeavour to do that. One puzzle for me is >> that people in neuroaesthetics tend to disregard neural plasticity which >> to me is an essential tool as I try to explain why different >> individuals >> have made art in different ways at different times and in different >> places. That is why I differentiate my activity, which has much in >> common with neuroaesthetics, as neuroarthistory. What I am trying to do >> is to formulate principles which explain those differences, using the >> record of all art worldwide from prehistory to the present as >> experimental >> material. If you want to find out a bit about this project you can read >> the introductory material to my Atlas of World Art 2004(just reissued in >> a >> cheaper edition as the Atlas of Art 2008). I like to think that the >> wealth of data provided by that rich record allows us both to formulate >> and test such principles. The testing is the essential part. Whether >> the principles I -and others working in this area-come up with are >> eventually recognised as laws remains to be seen, John >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> fis mailing list >> fis@listas.unizar.es >> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> > > >
_______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
