Dear Joseph, These "potentialities" can be considered as possible other (future) states of the system that can be entertained by reflexive systems such as human psyche and inter human discourse. The other possible states thus add to the maximum entropy (= log(N)). Given the observable systems (that is the expected information), the redundancy is thus enlarged (and uncertainty consequently reduced).
When the other possible states (entertained by the reflection) are further codified -- for example, in a model -- future states can also be entertained, predicted and/or engineered. Thus, the mechanisms of cultural expectations continuously transform the modeled system. "All that is solid will melt into air" (Marx). But one should not consider this as a dialectic. It is a trialectic of at least three selection mechanisms operating upon one another (selection, retention, self-organization). The reduction of uncertainty (the negative information) is caused by spurious correlations between each two of these three selection mechanisms. Best, Loet Loet Leydesdorff University of Amsterdam Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR) l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ Honorary Professor, SPRU, University of Sussex; Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, Beijing; Visiting Professor, Birkbeck, University of London; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en -----Original Message----- From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 10:28 AM To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: [Fis] [Fwd: "The Travelers"]--J.Brenner ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Joseph Brenner <mailto:joe.bren...@bluewin.ch> *To:* Stanley N Salthe <mailto:ssal...@binghamton.edu> ; fis <mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> *Sent:* Friday, October 24, 2014 9:25 AM *Subject:* Re: [Fis] "The Travelers" Dear Stan, Pedro and Bob L., I agree with Pedro that meaning is not present as an actuality when simple physical systems interact. But I agree in part with Stan also that we can, today, attribute a 'further interesting aspect' or a 'forerunner' of meaning to such processes. In my language, meaning, or meaningful information, is therefore present as a potentiality. This helps, I think, to see meaning not as an acquired set of informational entities, but as a process, an evolving set of relations to the underlying simpler physical and biological processes. Deacon describes well the recursive cognitive processes involved, only possible at the our evolved level, permitting the establishment of other higher level relations, e.g. creative and emotional. Another pertinent language is that of immanence. In a fully deterministic universe, we, and our roles, were 'present' at its inception in its current form. This might appear as an empty metaphorical attribution, for all ordinary practical purposes, but it is not empty if it has consequences for ethical behavior. Thank you and best wishes, Joseph ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Stanley N Salthe <mailto:ssal...@binghamton.edu> *To:* fis <mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> *Sent:* Thursday, October 23, 2014 3:27 PM *Subject:* [Fis] "The Travelers" Pedro wrote: PM: Regarding the theme of physical information raised by Igor and Joseph, the main problematic aspect of information (meaning) is missing there. One can imagine that as two physical systems interact, each one may be metaphorically attributed with meaning respect the changes experimented. But it is an empty attribution that does not bring any further interesting aspect. SS: I have advanced ( On the origin of semiosis. / Cybernetics and Human Knowing/ 19 (3): 53-66. 2012 ) the idea that whenever context influences importantly any reaction which, even in the physical realm, might be viewed as an informational exchange, there is the forerunner of the interpretation of an interaction, Such a simple 'interpretation' (proto-interpretation) would then be the forerunner of meaning generation. When context importantly influences the outcome of a physical interaction, this brings a "further interesting aspect" beyond the purely physical. STAN ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- ------------------------------------------------- Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ ------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
