Krassimir -- Thanks. Now I see what your objection is. You do not agree with the Wheeler concept that information was he basis upon which everything else was founded. Rather, you see it as appearing along with matter. Or you might consider that it appeared 'along with form', in which case information doesn't appear in the universe until life makes it appearance. I would add another possibility -- information does not appear in the universe until it is manipulated by modern human society as a commodity.
STAN On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com> wrote: > Dear John and Stan, > What is cause, and what is result? This is the question. > If we not assume information and informational processes as secondary > effect from activity of living mater, it is not possible to proof anything > and we have to believe that proposed models maybe are truth. We have to > trust to Author but not to experiments. > Information has to be included not in the beginning of the hierarchy – at > least in the middle where living mater appear. > Sorry that my post was apprehended as careless! > Friendly regards > Krassimir > > > > > > *From:* Stanley N Salthe <ssal...@binghamton.edu> > *Sent:* Saturday, June 13, 2015 3:30 PM > *To:* Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies! > > Krassimir -- ??? I fail to understand your assertion. This (and any > hierarchy) is a logical formulation, allowing us to allocate influences > from various aspects of nature in an orderly manner. > > So, please explain further your careless assertion! > > STAN > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com> > wrote: > >> Dear John and Stan, >> Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God. >> But this is believe, not science. >> Sorry, nothing personal! >> Friendly regards >> Krassimir >> >> >> >> >> *From:* John Collier <colli...@ukzn.ac.za> >> *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM >> *To:* Stanley N Salthe <ssal...@binghamton.edu> ; fis >> <fis@listas.unizar.es> >> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies! >> >> >> Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar: >> >> >> >> >> >> It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s >> computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree >> with this. >> >> Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most >> physiological systems. >> >> >> >> John >> >> >> >> *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Stanley >> N Salthe >> *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM >> *To:* fis >> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies! >> >> >> >> Pedro -- Your list: >> >> >> >> physical, biological, social, and Informational >> >> >> >> is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the >> physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social. >> But where should information appear? Following Wheeler, we should have: >> >> >> >> {informational {physicochemical {biological {social}}}} >> >> >> >> STAN >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan < >> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> wrote: >> >> Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort >> of the border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on >> the interrelationship between computation and information is an essential >> matter. In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life >> cycles are involved and meaningfully "touched", there is info; while the >> mere info circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any >> life-cycle relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction >> between both may help to consider more clearly the relationship between the >> four great domains of sceince: physical, biological, social, and >> Informational. If we adopt a pan-computationalist stance, the information >> turn of societies, of bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces >> to applying computer technologies. I think this would be a painful error, >> repeating the big mistake of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed >> the sciences of the artificial and reduced the nascent info science to >> library science. People like Alex Pentland (his "social physics" 2014) are >> again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, it was nicer talking face to face as >> we did in the past conference! >> >> best ---Pedro >> >> Ken Herold wrote: >> >> FIS: >> >> Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did >> not intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative >> way of philosophy or computing. The references I listed are indicative of >> some bad thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon. Our focus is >> information and I would like to hear how you might believe the formal >> relational scheme of Rosenbloom could be helpful? >> >> Ken >> >> -- >> Ken Herold >> Director, Library Information Systems >> Hamilton College >> 198 College Hill Road >> Clinton, NY 13323 >> 315-859-4487 >> kher...@hamilton.edu <mailto:kher...@hamilton.edu> >> >> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------- >> Pedro C. Marijuán >> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group >> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud >> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) >> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X >> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain >> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 <%2B34%20976%2071%203526> (& 6818) >> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es >> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ >> ------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Fis mailing list >> Fis@listas.unizar.es >> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> Fis mailing list >> Fis@listas.unizar.es >> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> > >
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