Dear Lou, Pedro and All, there was some interesting unintentional RECURSION in the latest postings we obtained here. I hope you will have sufficient time during the holidays to ponder on Lou’s central points and their recent comments. In due time I will come back to comment on them, Pivar’s art images and some other enigmatic aspects with an idea of how they may be pragmatically addressed.
I wish you all an Happy and Peaceful Easter! Plamen On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 5:42 PM, Louis H Kauffman <lou...@gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry Louis, but try again, please, for your address was wrong in the > list!!!! --Pedro > (I have just discovered, in a trip pause) > BlackBerry de movistar, allí donde estés está tu oficin@ > ------------------------------ > *From: * Louis H Kauffman <lou...@gmail.com> > *Date: *Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:56:06 -0500 > *To: *fis<fis@listas.unizar.es> > *Cc: *Pedro C. Marijuan<pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> > *Subject: *Re: [Fis] SYMMETRY & _ On BioLogic > > Dear Plamen, > It is possible. We are looking here at Pivar and his colleagues working > with the possibilities of materials. It is similar to how people in origami > have explored the possibilities of producing forms by folding paper. > If we can make hypotheses on how topological geometric forms should > develop in a way that is resonant with biology, then we can explore these > in a systematic way. An example is indeed the use of knot theory to study > DNA recombination. We have a partial model of the topological aspect of > recombination, and we can explore this by using rope models and the > abstract apparatus of corresponding topological models. Something similar > might be possible for developmental biology. > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 2:45 AM, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov < > plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear Lou and Colleagues, > > yes, I agree: an artistic approach can be very fruitful. This is like what > Stuart Kauffman says about speaking with metaphors. At some point our > mathematical descriptive tools do not have sufficient expressional power to > grasp more global general insights and we reach out to the domains of > narration, music and visualisation for help. And this is the point where > this effort of reflection upon a subject begins to generate and develop new > expressional forms of mathematics (logics, algebras, geometries). I think > that you and Ralph Abraham noted this in your contributions about the > mystic of mathematics in the 2015 JPBMB special issue. Therefore I ask > here, if we all feel that there is some grain of imaginative truth in the > works of Pivar and team, what piece of mathematics does it needs to become > a serious theory. Spencer-Brown did also have similar flashy insights in > the beginning, but he needed 20+ years to abstract them into a substantial > book and theory. This is what also other mathematicians do. They are > providing complete works. Modern artists and futurists are shooting fast > and then moving to the next “inspiration”, often without “marketing” the > earlier idea. And then they are often disappointed that they were not > understood by their contemporaries. The lack of They are often arrogant and > do not care about the opinion of others like we do in our FIS forum. But > they often have some “oracle” messages. So, my question to you and the > others here is: Is there a way that we, scientists, can build a solid > theory on the base of others' artistic insights? Do you think you can help > here as an expert in topology and logic to fill the formalisation gaps in > Pivar’s approach and develop something foundational. All this would take > time and I am not sure if such artists like Pivar would be ready to > participate a scientific-humanitarian discourse, because we know that most > of these talents as extremely egocentric and ignorant and we cannot change > this. What do you think? > > Best, > > Plamen > > > > > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Louis H Kauffman <lou...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Dear Plamen, >> I do not know why Gel-Mann supported this. It is interesting to me >> anyway. It is primarily an artistic endeavor but is based on some ideas of >> visual development of complex forms from simpler forms. >> Some of these stories may have a grain of truth. The sort of thing I do >> and others do is much more conservative (even what D’Arcy Thompson did is >> much more conservative). We look for simple patterns that definitely seem >> to occur in complex situations and we abstract them and work with them on >> their own grounds, and with regard to how these patterns work in a complex >> system. An artistic approach can be very fruitful. >> Best, >> Lou >> >> On Mar 16, 2016, at 9:43 AM, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov < >> plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Dear Lou, Pedro and Colleagues, >> >> I have another somewhat provoking question about the "constructive" role >> of topology in morphogenesis. What do you think about the somewhat >> artistic, but scientifically VERY controversial theory about the origin and >> development of life forms based on physical forces from classical mechanics >> and topology only, thus ignoring all of genetics, Darwinism and Creationism: >> >> http://www.ilasol.org.il/ILASOL/uploads/files/Pivar_ILASOL-2010.pdf >> >> What part of this can be regarded as science at all, and If there is >> something missing what is it? Why did a person like Murray Gel-Mann support >> this? >> >> >> Best >> >> Plamen >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan < >> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> wrote: >> >>> Louis, a very simple question: in your model of self-replication, when >>> you enter the environment, could it mean something else than just providing >>> the raw stuff for reproduction? It would be great if related to successive >>> cycles one could include emergent topological (say geometrical-mechanical) >>> properties. For instance, once you have divided three times the initial >>> egg-cell, you would encounter three symmetry axes that would co-define the >>> future axes of animal development--dorsal/ventral, anterior/posterior, >>> lateral/medial. Another matter would be about the timing of complexity, >>> whether mere repetition of cycles could generate or not sufficient >>> functional diversity such as Plamen was inquiring in the case of molecular >>> clocks (nope in my opinion). best--Pedro >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------- >>> Pedro C. Marijuán >>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group >>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud >>> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) >>> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X >>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain >>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) >>> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es >>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ >>> ------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Fis mailing list >>> Fis@listas.unizar.es >>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >>> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Fis mailing list > Fis@listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > >
_______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
