Hello Krassimir - I agree with the sentiments you expressed - they seem to parallel my thoughts.
I am often puzzled by the use of the term ‘information’ in the way it is often used by physicists re the info of material objects . The way the term information is used in physics such as Wheelers its from bits does not conform to my understanding of information as a noun describing the process of informing. How can abiotic matter be informed as it cannot make any choices and hence cannot be informed. Living organisms make choices and use information to make those choices for all living creatures from bacteria to humans including physicists :-). The only information involved in the uses by physicists describing our universe of the word information is that associated with physicists becoming informed of what is happening in the universe they observe. I am happy that they want to discuss this info but I believe there is a need to distinguish between info (biotic) and info (abiotic) as used in physics. The use of a single word information for both categories is confusing, at least it is for me. This ambiguity reminds me of Shannon's use of the term entropy to define his notion of information having taken the advice of Von Neumann. A story is told that Shannon did not know what to call his measure and von Neumann advised him to call it entropy because nobody knows what it means and that it would therefore give Shannon an advantage in any debate (Campbell, Jeremy 1982, p. 32 Grammatical Man: Information, Entropy, Language, and Life. New York: Simon and Schuster. ). Shannon defined information in such a way that he admitted was not necessarily about meaning. Information without meaning has no meaning for me. Kind regards to all - Bob Logan ______________________ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Fellow University of St. Michael's College Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/ On Mar 26, 2017, at 5:39 AM, Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com> wrote: Dear Brian, Arturo, Karl, Alex, Lars-Goran, Gyuri, and FIS colleagues, Thank you for your remarks! What is important is that every theory has its own understanding of the concepts it uses. For “foreigners”, theirs meaning may be strange or unknown. Some times, concepts of one theory contradict to corresponded concepts from other theory. For years, I have met many different definitions of concept “information” and many more kinds of its use. From materialistic up to weird point of view... To clear my own understanding, I shall give you a simple example: CAN THE CAN DRINK BEER ? CAN THE CAN EXCHANGE BEER WITH THE GLASS ? The can is used by humans for some goals, for instance to store some beer for a given period. But the can itself “could not understand” its own functions and what the can can do with beer it contains. All its functionality is a human’s consciousness model. Can cannot exchange beer with the glass if there are no human activity or activity of additional devices invented by humans to support this. Further: CAN THE ARTIFICIAL LEG WALK ? You know the answer ... Human with an artificial leg can walk ... All functionality of artificial leg is a result from human’s consciousness modeling and invention. In addition: IS THE “PHYSICAL INFORMATION” INFORMATION ? If it is, the first question is how to measure the quantity and quality of such “information” and who can do this? I prefer the answer “NO” – “physical information” is a concept which means something else but not “information” as it is in my understanding. From my point of view, “physical information” is a kind of reflection (see “Theory of reflections” of T.Pavlov). Every reflection may be assumed as information iff (if and only if) there exist a subjective information expectation to be resolved by given reflection. For physical information this low is not satisfied. Because of this, I prefer to call this phenomenon simply “a reflection”. And so on ... Finally: Human been invented too much kinds of prostheses including ones for our intellectual functionalities, i.e. many different kinds of electronic devices which, in particular, can generate some electrical, light, etc. impulses, which we assume as “information”; usually a combination of impulses we assume as s structure to be recognized by us as “information”. A special kind of prostheses are Robots. They have some autonomous functionalities but are still very far from living consciousness. The level of complexity of robot’s consciousness is far of human’s one. Someone may say that robots understand and exchange “information”, but still they only react on incoming signals following the instructions given by humans. Theirs functioning is similar to human ones but only similar. They may recognize some structures of signals and exchange such ones with other robots or living creatures. Maybe someone wants to call this “information exchange”, but, after Shannon, I call this “sending and/or receiving signals”. And automatic reaction to signals. One may say, the Robot (Computer) memory contains information but really it does not contain anything – it has its own structure which can be changed temporally of permanently by external electrical impulses. Is the human memory the same – a structure which can be changed temporally of permanently by external or internal signals? I think – yes, It is! What is the difference? Why we may say that the living creatures process information but not living couldn’t? The answer is: because the living creatures may create and resolve the “information expectation” with very high level of complexity. Maybe in the future robots will can do it ... Such robot I call “INFOS”. It will be artificial living creature. Possibly with some biological elements. It will be very interesting and amazing to see how the can can drink beer :-) And very dangerous – where the beer will be kept if the can can drink it? I hope, now it is clear why I assert that (now!) non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”. Friendly regards Krassimir From: Karl Javorszky <mailto:karl.javors...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 8:24 PM To: Alex Hankey <mailto:alexhan...@gmail.com> Cc: Krassimir Markov <mailto:mar...@foibg.com> ; Arturo Tozzi <mailto:tozziart...@libero.it> ; FIS Webinar <mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> Subject: Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information” 1) Let me second to the point Alex raises: machines, computers, do exchange information. It would be against cultural conventions to say that the notification that the refrigerator sends to your phone's app "to-do-list" of the content "milk only 0.5 liter available" is not an information. The signals my car's pressure sensor sends to my dashboard, saying "tire pressure front right wheel is critically low" is a clear case of information, whether I read it or not. 2) Let me add to the point Alex states, namely that the "form of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have personally seen in the scientific literature", (Alex, will you please restate in the present context, for the present discussion, your formulation) the following: I have given in my work "Natural orders - de ordinibus naturalibus" (ISBN 9783990571378) the following definition of the term "information": 8.3.3.3 Information is a description of what is not the case. [Let x = ak. This is a statement, no information contained. Let x = ak and k <symbol for is_included_in> {1,2,...,k,...,n}. This statement contains the information k <symbol for is_not_included_in>{1,2,...,k-1,k+1,...,n}.] (Sorry for the included & not-included symbols not making it thru the simplified text editor in use here.) Karl 2017-03-24 18:51 GMT+01:00 Alex Hankey <alexhan...@gmail.com <mailto:alexhan...@gmail.com>>: > BUT, in common parlance, computers and mobile phones 'exchange information' > (in the abstract, digital sense) all the time. Including this email. > > If you wish to cleanly restrict yourself to semantic content, the the form of > information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only scientifically > based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have personally seen > in the scientific literature. > > Best wishes, > > Alex Hankey > > > On 24 March 2017 at 15:25, Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com > <mailto:mar...@foibg.com>> wrote: >> Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues, >> Let me remember that: >> The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could “exchange >> information” leads to many principal theoretical as well as psychological >> faults. >> For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or reflections ! >> Sorry for this n-th my remark ... >> Friendly greetings >> Krassimir >> >> >> >> >> From: tozziart...@libero.it <mailto:tozziart...@libero.it> >> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM >> To: fis@listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> >> Subject: [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly important? >> >>> >>> >>> Dear Lars-Göran, >>> I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore it will be my last FIS >>> mail for the next days. >>> >>> First of all, in special relativity, an observer is NOT by definition a >>> material object that can receive and store incoming energy from other >>> objects. >>> In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a set >>> of objects or events are being measured. Speaking of an observer is not >>> specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is experiencing events, >>> but rather it is a particular mathematical context which objects and events >>> are to be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity occur whether >>> or not there is a "material object that can recieve and store incoming >>> energy from other objects" within the inertial reference frame to witness >>> them. >>> >>> Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that crosses a cosmic >>> zone close to the sun. The photon "detects" (and therefore can interact >>> with) a huge sun surface (because of its high speed), while we humans on >>> the Earth "detect" (and can interact with) a much smaller sun surface. >>> Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the >>> humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same >>> sun, but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may exchange >>> with the sun a different information content. >>> If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite, >>> fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more >>> information with the sun than we humans can. >>> >>> In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, >>> rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the >>> time of the "observer". >>> >>> >>> Arturo Tozzi >>> AA Professor Physics, University North Texas >>> Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy >>> Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba >>> http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ <http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/> >>> >>> >>>> ----Messaggio originale---- >>>> Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson" <lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se >>>> <mailto:lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se>> >>>> Data: 24/03/2017 14.50 >>>> A: "tozziart...@libero.it >>>> <mailto:tozziart...@libero.it>"<tozziart...@libero.it >>>> <mailto:tozziart...@libero.it>> >>>> Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is information truly important? >>>> >>>> >>>>> 24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev tozziart...@libero.it >>>>> <mailto:tozziart...@libero.it>: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Fisers, >>>>> a big doubt... >>>>> >>>>> We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D >>>>> horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations. >>>>> >>>>> However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who watches a >>>>> black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due to >>>>> Einstein's equations. >>>>> Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an >>>>> observer at rest, who sees a smaller horizon… >>>> An observer is by definition a material object that can recieve and store >>>> incoming energy from other objects. Since it requires infinite energy to >>>> accelerate even a slighest object to the velocity of light, no observer >>>> can travel at the speed of light. That means that your thought experiment >>>> is based in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them >>>> can be drawn. >>>> Lars-Göran Johansson >>>> >>>>> >>>>> In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just >>>>> a very subjective measure... >>>>> >>>>> Arturo Tozzi >>>>> AA Professor Physics, University North Texas >>>>> Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy >>>>> Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba >>>>> http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ <http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Fis mailing list >>>>> Fis@listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es> >>>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >>>>> <http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lars-Göran Johansson >>>> lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se >>>> <mailto:lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se> >>>> 0701-679178 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Fis mailing list >> Fis@listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es> >> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> <http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Fis mailing list >> Fis@listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es> >> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> <http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis> >> > > > > -- > Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) > Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science, > SVYASA, Eknath Bhavan, 19 Gavipuram Circle > Bangalore 560019, Karnataka, India > Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195 <tel:+44%207710%20534195> > Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789 <tel:+91%2090080%2008789> > ____________________________________________________________ > > 2015 JPBMB Special Issue on Integral Biomathics: Life Sciences, Mathematics > and Phenomenological Philosophy > <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00796107/119/3> > _______________________________________________ > Fis mailing list > Fis@listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > <http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis> > _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
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