This message is from: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [This post is by Warren Riddle Spokane WA] [Hi Janet, Thank you for responding!!! you have very good post. Perhaps there may be a misunderstanding that Warren is a seasoned knowledgable horse person and that I have expounded on genetics often --- well not true. Sylvia and I are fairly new to horses and purchased our first Fjords just three years ago So bottom line I could be off on my assesment of cross breeding. I will admit to working hard at being a good student of Fjords and I am involved with the NFHR.] [Below is your post with a few of my comments in response]
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:28:32 -0500 From: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: The Case Against Cross-Breeding Fjords This message is from: "Janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I feel have to address this letter, not to make a case for cross breeding fjords, but to examine some information portrayed here about cross breeding. I too, as a member of the NFHR and a fjord owner have accepted the policy of no crossbreeding, and personally, as a mare owner, I cannot imagine why one would take a valuable mare, and cross breed with her to make foals of lesser value than the purebred. [(Janet, if she were not a valuable mare but instead had some defects you should not want to breed her at all, to a Fjord or a stallion from another breed.)] I also agree the Fjord is just perfect the way it is for my purposes and have absolutely no desire to change it. I do however differ from others here in that I do not want to be presumptuous and try to second guess why another person might desire to have a cross bred. [( Janet, I have visited with several cross-breeders just in the last month plus many times before and I would divide them up into two groups. One group would be aiming for hybrid vigor or size from the cross-breeding as you stated at the F1. The second group is looking at it from a financial point of view i.e. Fjords are valuable and therefore the look alike is also valuable.}] But as a group of breeders, I think it is important to correctly understand what cross-breeding does and does not do, and what truly are potential threats to the integrity of the Fjord breed. We cannot safeguard the integrity of the breed by perpetuating mis information about crossbreeding . [Boy howdy, you are right on this last statement, Janet.] Warren brought up several common points of argument which warrant discussion. Warren wrote about a lady who represented a half breed Fjord as a purebred, and therefore if crossbreeding was not allowed, this sort of dishonesty would not happen. Well, it will happen whether crossbreeding is allowed or not. [Well Janet, I consider myself a clumsy writer. My wife calls me an "under-explainer", while she comes from an "over- explainer" family --- One of the reasons I do not like cross breeding of Fjords is that I think it OFTEN leads to dishonest business practices. I do recognize that this is America and anyone can do as they please, for the most part.] The problem is not that there are crossbreds out there, the problem is there will always be dishonest people, and there will always be folks who are at the beginning of the learning curve who are going to be duped. The antidote is to educate the prospective fjord owning public as to the merits of the purebred Fjord and how to recognize a purebred, and to have policies that safeguard against dishonesty. It is my understanding there are already Fjord crosses happening despite the association rules, and what happens outside of the association, the NFHR has no control over. So the focus should not be on what the association has no control over, but instead should be aimed at education to make wise consumers. [Educating all potential future Fjord purchasers ---- Wow, a herculean task, Janet?? But it is an important task and that is what we attempt to do on NFHR.com, with Fjord Herald, with Fjord brochures, with the video "Versatile Fjord", with 4-H open houses, with exhibits at all-breed shows, etc. etc.)] In the case of this particular person, the management of the event should have been notified that a fraudulent sale had taken place. [The problem was, how would I prove to non-Fjord people that it was not a purebred, pull a few tail hairs and send them in for a DNA test?? Nor was I a witness to the verbal sales pitch, only what I witnessed after the sale. But thank you, I will consider what I might report to the show committee before next year's show at the same facility. Perhaps they can prevent a repeat.] Regarding the article in 'the Horse' magazine about the fatal diseases in many other breeds of horses. For those who hold this fear, how is it that you propose these genes will jump into the Fjord breed? [The same way they "jumped-in" to the unfortunate foals within those breeds: pasture breeding, hand breeding or AI. Its like an imature high school kid "jumping-in-bed" with their "exciting" friend and not thinking in terms of the best husband or wife to provide both genetically and otherwise for the resulting child. They think that luck will get them thru life. There are cross-breeders who have the foolish idea they might improve two bargain sub-standard horses by cross- breeding. They hope they can GET LUCKY. ] Many breeders of cattle and sheep and some breeds of horses, utilize crossbreeding without gene migration being a problem. When breeds are used for crossing, the importance of quality pure breds is heightened because purebred parents that can reliably stamp their breed traits onto the cross are required. A crossbred parent is of little value in a crossbreeding program, the greatest benefits of crossing are acquired in the F1 by mating two purebred parents. [Well I do not get it, Janet . I can certainly see the F1 in corn plants being of an extreme value and I can see Black Baldies bringing a 2 --3 cent premium as feeder cattle but where are cross-bred horses? Do any of them win the Kentucky Derby? But to the instant point, where are these great F1 Fjord crosses???? Are they doing something the Fjord can't do? Well what about their sales prices as compared to Fjords??? Or that hybrid vigor, where is it??? It only exist in the minds of X-breeders, that are near the low end of the learning curve!!!] So good purebred stock are very important to proper crossbreeding program. (Well, there is no incentive to use "GOOD purebred stock" for crossbreeding.) As to avoiding those genetic problems, this is why genetic diversity must be presevered [ Let me challenge you Janet calculate the numbers which affect the genetic diversity of the Fjord in North America --- it is realitivity simple math of probabilties of the numbers of horses and genes and genomes.] -within- the breed to avoid getting stuck in a corner with a limited gene pool. Genetic diversity is preserved via avoiding overuse of certain lines or a single popular stallion. Mutations do and will occur and only a breed with a good healthy, diverse, gene pool will be able to work their way out of a problem should it arise. [I think we have that "good, healthy, diverse, gene pool right now. Would you think, Janet, that it is up to official Fjord leadership to require or encourage culling bad genes and gene combinations? Should it be their "official" responsibilty to make sure that mutations and gene combinations that result in bad conformation are not preserved but trashed? Should mutations and gene combinations that give twice as much intelligence be preserved and propigated by our leadership? Should we be more focused on the greatest amount of diversity of good genes? Should it be "officials" or breeders who cull by not breeding sub-standard Fjords? Should it be "officials" or the breeder who looks over the pedigrees and avoids "line breeding"? We know we are not going to cross all our Fjords with Zebras to worship the gods of diversity. We simply do not want those Zebra genes.] Crossbred genes cannot enter the purebred population unless either the association allows the registration of crossbreds in a grading up program (NOT done in the NFHR) or because a breeder falsifies papers. So the only way a crossbred Fjord can become registered is if a mare or stallion owner sends in a false pedigree, which in many instances is also going to require the cooperation of another fjord breeder. [ Nope, DNA samples are required to register a Fjord!!!] If a horse is not the offspring of two registered Fjords, then it cannot be registered as a Fjord, it is that simple! btw, false pedigrees are not just a crossbred problem. False pedigrees can happen either accidentally or on purpose within purebred mating, such as when an a high priced stallion was not fertile so another stallion was used in his stead, but the papers reflect the more valuable stallion as the sire. They can happen accidentally when more than one stallion is stood on a farm due to employee error, or inadequate facilities. [Cannot happen because NFHR requires DNA tests] Whether crossbred or purebred, any animal with a false pedigree is a danger to the integrety of the breed. Thus it is more important to focus on how to maintain breeder integrity, such as requiring DNA samples on all registered horses, and having some teeth in the rules for people who attempt to violate them. (but the teeth need only apply to those attempting to -register- animals with false pedigrees, not focus on punishing owners who are crossbreeding when the breeder is honest and representing the result as a crossbred). My point here is to say that the kind of fear mongering that is used to discourage crossbreeding is really perpetuating some incorrect information about a time honored mating system used to great benefit in many species. There is nothing of value to be gained by perpetuating myths about defective monster crossbreds. [ Well, my grandsons would think it was cool if there was a way to crossbreed a Fjord and get a Hollywood style monster. But we are not talking about monsters we are really talking about the disappointment that is extremely likely when crossbreeding a low value Fjord with a low value horse from another breed. Everyone wants a very nice home and a very nice car. They are good investments. We need to educate the horse buying public that there are good reasons to invest in a very nice REAL FJORD. We need to educate them that a disappointing horse will cost as much and maybe more to own and give them less enjoyment. We need to educate them about the REAL VALUE of a REAL FJORD.] As breeders we should focus on breeder integrity, DNA testing, and use evaluations as a way to protect the integrity of the purebred Fjord. [ I give you and A+ for this statement!!! And I think we are seeing evaluations as a way of improving the breed. I think we are seeing better Fjords than in the historic pictures. And I have heard our official "evaluators" state that in North America serious Fjord breeders are improving the breeding herds. ] There is only one legitimate reason to discourage crossbreeding in the Fjord breed, and lets just face up and be honest about it. If crossbreds were to be overwhelmingly popular, they can be produced cheaper than the purebreds and in great quantity by breeding purebred stallions to a plethora of non Fjord mares. Thus there is potential that the price paid for purebreds could suffer if the market was flooded with crossbreds, and if the price paid for purebreds suffered, then the production of good registered horses might decline below some important threshold. [Markets are fluid in North America and the market is already speaking, example Dreamhorse.com, but cross breeders are not listening] Whether or not this would really happen is not certain. In many instances it never happened, but I think in a few breeds, the popularity of crossbreds quite possibly brought down the breed. [You are probably right. I am not knowledgable on this but would be curious which breeds you think have been brought down by crossbreeding. I think I am aware that the Appaloosa was an ugly headed horse many years ago and now looks like a Quarter Horse with spots.] But this (protecting the value of the purebred) is the only legitimate reason a policy against crossbreeding might be beneficial for the breed. ([Janet, I think you are totally wrong on this point. I think that would be true if we had a defective breed and wanted to protect it for sentimental reasons or just out of stubborn-ness. I again mention Apaloosas. Historically their heads were ugly. Crossbreeding "seems" to have improved the Appaloosas. I challenge you to tell me one TYPICAL health, conformation or temperment characteristic of Fjords that really needs improving and could not be improved within the breed.)] (Warren) Janet
