This message is from: "Carol Riviore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia ----
In answer to Phil's many comments . . .
Phil said . . .
I got involved in this discussion when you indicated Gjest had 300
offspring
in Holland and 100 in Norway. I also recalled the way you had advertised
Gjest
as the all time fastest trotter in Norway.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's response . . .
I should have checked my facts re the "100" offspring in Norway. -- I
wrongly assumed, and "assuming" anything is something I know not to do.
However, since Gjest was approved in Norway as a breeding stallion in 1981,
and not imported to Holland until Jan. of 1983 (2 breeding seasons), I
assumed he must have had about 100 offspring. The assumption was based on
the number of mares Gjest bred yearly in Holland, adjusted for the lower
Fjord population in Norway. -- I
.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
I had spoken to him (Tor Nestas) regarding your assertion that Gjest held
the fastest
trotting time for a fjord some years ago. He indicated that Gjest did not
have
the fastest trotting time and gave me several Fjords that were faster from
memory. Recently when I asked him for clarification regarding Gjest
trotting
times, he researched the records and I posted his findings to this list.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's Response . . . .
If Tor Nestas told you some years ago that Gjest did not hold this trotting
record . . . then why in the world didn't you approach me with that news?
For TWENTY YEARS, I've been publicizing the fact of Gjest's phenomenal
trotting record. -- I didn't dream this up! -- I was told this
information as FACT by Holland's Chief Inspector of Fjords and head of their
Fjord Studbook (registry). --- TWENTY YEARS AGO.
-- As I've said
before, that information is documented in the 1985 edition of B. J. van
Bon's
book, "Van Vestlandhest tot Fjordenpaarden". -- For those who haven't seen
it, Van Bon's book is a
factual history of the breed, 176 pages crammed full of pedigrees, charts,
and statistics --
This book clearly states on page 74 that Gjest trotted the km in 2.12
in. --
Since I was told this fact by OFFICIAL SOURCES, and had seen
it printed in Van Bon's book - I had no reason to doubt it. --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
***** In 1995, Van Bon published the second REVISED edition of his book, and
the
exact same information about Gjest's trotting record was in this new
edition on page 89.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**** My question is WHY in the world, in the TEN YEAR PERIOD between 1985 -
1995,
didn't somebody from Norway point out to Van Bon that there was an
error in
his book regarding a historical statistic? ***** Since Van Bon's
book is one of the few books on the Fjordhorse, surely somebody official in
Norway must have read it and noticed. -- If so, why wasn't something
aid. --
-- Considering that nobody in twenty years ever said anything contrary . .
.WHY in the world should I have doubted what I'd been told by reliable
sources?
And WHY in the world hasn't anybody from anywhere said anything to me in the
last 20 years about this? -- No individual from any country has ever said
anything to me, or to my knowledge, to anybody else inferring that Gjest's
much publicized (by me) trotting record may not have happened. -- No U.S.,
Canadian, or European registry has ever said anything indicating doubt about
this trotting record. -- WHY? -- No individual in Norway or any other
European country has ever questioned me about it. -- No official source, or
individual has ever indicated a doubt about this record. -- Isn't that
strange in twenty years?
Phil, you said that you'd spoken to Tor Nestas years ago about Gjest's
fastest trotting time, and been told it wasn't so. --
Then, I ask you . . . . WHY didn't you
mention it to me at the time? - Why didn't you mention it to somebody in
the NFHR?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
It turns out that Gjest did not have the fastest trotting time for even
his
year class let alone all other year classes when he was evaluated at
Nordfjordeid. >
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's response . . .
Phil, considering my source of this information is the CHIEF INSPECTOR
OF FJORDS FOR HOLLAND, Bob van Bon, and the fact that Van Bon has held this
position for Holland for 40 years, and is highly respected everywhere in the
Fjord world . . . . . I ask you --- Why should I take your word over his?
In case you're not that familiar with Bob van Bon, I can tell you he is a
Fjord judge 100% beyond reproach as anybody who has had their
horses judged by him, or watched him judging, will attest. -- Van Bon
holds a distinguised record of 40 years service to the Fjord breed and to
the owners and breeders in Holland. --He is admired and respected by other
Fjord breed organizations in Europe -- He has worked tirelessly for the
breed. Anybody who has had anything to do with this man knows this for a
fact. -- -- He is honest, concientious, and professional to a
fault -- Some would say "brutally honest". -- The man does his job
without sentiment and without influence from anybody or anything. --Anyone
who knows Van Bon
knows that it's ludicrous to think him anything but a
totally honest professional.
As I say in my own book, THE FJORDHORSE HANDBOOK, . . . I have learned
from Van Bon. -- I have
learned about sentimentality and honesty. ---- I have learned to be
scrupulously honest about our horses. Honest with myself in regards to
objectivly judging them, and honest to the customers who come to us
looking for certain things in a Fjordhorse. -- When we bought horses from
Holland, Van Bon was always totally frank and honest regarding
the positive and negative points of each horse. -- He did this for
god reasons - #1 It was good business practice -- #2 - As he told me
several times . . . "I don't want trouble after the sale." -- I have never
forgotten this, and always followed his good example. - Another thing I've
repeated probably ad nauseum is that at Beaver Dam Farm, we want a new
friend after a sale, not a disgruntled customer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
I am sure Mr. Von Bon can give you the number of Gjest offspring in Holland
if you ask him. He may have 300 there. You can also ask Von Bon a place and
date that he ran his 2.12 if you like.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's response . . .
Thank you, Phil for your suggestions. I will certainly do that as I am now
fired up to verify the truth. In fact, I put in a call to his
office yesterday, but he wasn't there. He's been on his annual trip to
Norway for the stalliion evaluations. I spoke to someone in the office
about what I wanted, and they will be speaking to Van Bon and relaying the
message. He will be back in Holland the end of the week.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .>
I am sure Mr. Von Bon evaluated Gjest in Holland and his official scores
would
be a matter of public record in Holland I expect. You could share those
with
us if you like.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's response . . .
Phil, Mr. van Bon evaluated Gjest in Norway, which is why he purchased him
for Holland. -- In other words, he saw Gjest, liked what he saw, and made
the deal.
As to evaluating stallions in Holland --- The merit
of the stallion is assessed through his offspring. --
The proof of the stallion is IN HIS OFFSPRING! --- That's it! That's the
way it's done in Holland. --
--The Dutch Fjord Studbook has a wonderfully specific program for
achieving this evaluation -- A program
that I've explained in detail many times on this List. --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
In the end it is not about how fast they can trot anyway. The
quality of the trot, Rhythm, regularity, elasticity, correctness, length,
freedom, impulsion, and reach with the fronts, that counts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's response . . .
Of course, it isn't about how fast they can trot! FJords are not bred as
race horses, although that is, indeed, in their heritage. -- Of course,
it's the quality of the trot, meaning - rhythm, regularity, elasticity,
straightness, length of stride, freedom of joint movement, impulsion from
the hindquarters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
People can say anything they want to about their stallions, mares, and
offspring.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's response . . .
Yes, they can say anything they want. -- But, hopefully ---- And I do
fervently hope that this is the last
time ---- I'm telling you that I have not been "frivolously spouting off
for the last 20 years
about Gjest's trotting record. -- I was repeating IN GOOD FAITH what I
had been told by an
official, and highly respected source --- a source I had no reason to
doubt, and STILL have no reason to doubt today.
ONE MORE THING -- If anybody has any doubts about Bob van Bon's
credibility -- I would like to tell you something. -- Ten years or so
ago, Bob van Bon was offered the most prestigious horse job in Holland, and
one of the most prestigious in all of Europe. --
He was offered the job of
Chief Inspector of the KWPN (Dutch Warmblood Horse Registry) -- Think about
that! --- The KWPN is a strongly funded, world respected, significant
force in the whole Dutch economy. -- Think about what kind or horseman
this prestigious organization is going to look for. --- Next to the KWPN,
the Fjord Studbook is miniscule -- 90,000 Dutch Warmbloods in
Holland. --10,000 + Fjords. -- Dutch Warmbloods sell in the hundreds of
thousands of dollars. -- -- Bob van Bon is so good at his job as Chief
Inspector of Fjords, that
the biggest horse registry in all of Holland wanted to steal him -----If
Bob van Bon had taken that job,
he would have had a phenomenal boost in salary as well as prestige. --
-- He refused the offer! -- Bob van Bon said to me . . . "THE FJORDS
ARE NOT JUST MY JOB. -- THEY ARE WHAT I LOVE."
"j~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
Official evaluations by evaluators trained to judge Fjord horses in
countries
such as Norway, Denmark, Germany, Belgium, Sweden, and with the NFHR in
America are, I believe, the best way to evaluate our horses compared to
the
Norwegian Fjord breed standard.( Not one horse compared to the next but
one
horse compared to the breed standard.) The results of these evaluations
are
recorded and become public record, published in stud books and record
books.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-- I am totally in favor of Evaluations (Keurings, as
the Dutch call them) -- I have used the Keuring system to purchase Fjords
in Holland over the years. It's invaluable. -- However, there are several
problems I see with the U.S. Evaluation system, but that I'll not get into
here as this is already long enough . . .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
I do not take glee in this sort of confrontation. Nor do I like to see
misinformation offered as fact.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's Response . . .
Misinformation? -- I've apologised for my incorrect assumption that Gjest
bred about 100 mares during his 2 year stay in Norway after the Norwegians
granted him Approved Status. That was a mistake on my part.
However, if you're talking about the trotting record, that was no mistake on
my part, or as far as I know at this time, is it "misinformation". -- I
had good, solid information as to the veracity of this fact. I had and have
no reason to doubt. -- Now, since you have brought this up, I welcome
proof that I've had the wrong information all these years. -- I'm waiting
for that proof. But, until I get it, nothing has changed. -- And if I get
proof, I will, of course, gladly acknowledge it. --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
> You have done a great deal for the Fjord Horse in North America Carol.
> You
have a very fine stallion in Gjest and he has some wonderful offspring.
I have
seen several of them and some have been evaluated through the NFHR. Their
scores in individual areas are recorded in the record book(s).
You have imported several good fjords from Holland.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's response . . .
A few more than just "several" Fjords we've imported, Phil - 82 Fjords, to
be exact! -- This
list includes Model 1st Class Mares, Ster Mares, Prestatie Mares, & Keur
mares. -- It also includes two approved breeding stallions from the
Netherlands Fjordhorse Studbook -- Gjest & Holunder. (Gjest originating in
Norway, Holunder in Germany) -- It includes several
regional champions; such as the Champion of Friesland, RIENA, owned now by
the Sullivan family. --
We've imported so many good Fjords from Holland,
particularly, so many "Ster Mares", that a member of the Dutch Studbook's
Board of Directors once said to me . .
. "You are taking too many of our good horses out of Holland."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
Von Bon's breeding program has
certainly produced some good and great animals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's response . . . .
It is not "Van Bon's breeding program". It is the breeding program of the
Nederlandse Fjordenpaarden Stamboek. -- There is an active and powerful
Board of Directors, and I believe, 13,000 members. -- Van Bon works for
the Studbook as its Chief Inspector of Fjords. -- He very often says that
he has "13,000 bosses."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
Not all Fjords bred in Norway
are up the breed standard in all aspects, not all fjords bred in Holland
are
up to the breed standard in all aspects, and I doubt that all Gjest
offspring
are up to the breed standard in all aspects. I am sure my stallion's
offspring
are not perfect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol's response . . .
As a breeder of 26 years, I know this perfectly well. -- Also as an
importer of Fjordhorses, I'm very well aware of this. -- Have you read my
book?
If you have, then you must have read my chapter about how excruciatingly
difficult it was to buy horses in Europe that met our own BDF standards. I
was in Holland 12 times on study and buying trips, and despite the fact that
it's a small country, and has a lot of Fjords, it was not easy to find and
buy the really good ones. _-- I worked like hell at it on my many many
buying trips to Holland. -- If you have not read my book, then I'll tell
you here the gist of it, and what I learned.
I learned that as valuable as Evaluations are --- They DO NOT tell the
whole story. -- I had to make my own decisions about the horses I was
shown. -- Almost every one of those horses had been evaluated, and had
received the coveted "A Premie" -- And yet, each time I was there, I looked
at close to 200 yearlings (almost all "A Premies") in order to choose the 12
I felt were good enough to import to Beaver Dam Farm. -- That is the
reality of Keurings. EVALUATIONS ARE NOT THE "BE ALL AND END ALL". -- A
good
breeder still has to have enough knowledge and experience to make his own
informed
decisions. --
Don't get me wrong -- I am 100% for Evaluations. I think the educational
component is invaluable. -- Having used the Dutch Keuring system for 20+
years in making buying decisions, I know exactly how valuable Evaluations
are. -- In fact, one of the first bits of advice Van Bon gave American
Fjord breeders was at Woodstock in about 1982. -- He said - "The first
thing you must do is be sure all your foals are identified (he was talking
branding - now its DNA, of course.) -- The second thing you must do is be
sure all your foals are evaluated. This will help you grow the breed in
America."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . .
The NFHR is primarily an information based registry.. . . . It is for that
reason I have respectfully
confronted you regarding your assertions concerning Gjest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil, as to the trotting record, that has yet to be proven to me or to
anybody else. -- You quote one
expert. I quote another. -- I, more than anybody, would like to know the
truth.
Not that it matters particularly, but I certainly don't want to continue
quoting that statistic, if in fact, it isn't correct. -- Whether it is or
not, remains to be seen.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil said . . . >
I have seen BDF John Arthur, BDF Magnum, and BDF Obelisk move at the
trot.
These horses move very well in my opinion and are good solid performers.
Take care, Phil
>------------------------------
Carol's response . . . .
Yes, they are all good movers, and I'm happy you've had the pleasure to see
these three Gjest sons. -- But, I have, in fact, studied ALL of the Gjest
offspring born on this farm, and many that were born to outside mares. That
is 70+ Gjest sons and daughters. NOT JUST A FEW -- And I can
tell you for a fact, that the majority of them inherit Gjest's way of
oing. -- Most, not as good, mind you, but MUCH better than average.
-- It's a fact that the majority of Gjest offspring
are above average in movement. -- Gjest sons and daughters do, indeed,
inherit his good movement and VERY GOOD WORK ETHIC. --- They're not all
terrific, but they're definitely above average. -- I
know this because along with the Gjest
offspring we' have had hundreds of other Fjords on the farm in the last 26
years giving all of us here an unusual opportunity to study the Fjord breed,
and COMPARE the different bloodlines. -- With all those years, and all
those
horses carefully studied, a person learns a few things along the way.
I don't know you, Phil, and I don't know what kind of an eye you have for
horse movement. Could be excellent for all I know. --
I do know my own capabililties in that regard. I know I have a good eye
for movement, and I don't mean just how "fancy" the
movement is. What I mean is CORRECT movement. -- All the aspects of it
you mentioned above -- ie, rhythm, regularity, elasticity, thrust from
behind, freedom in front, and straightness. -- I KNOW what I'm looking at.
I know when it's average, poor, very good, and quite extraordinary. -- I
can see clearly when a horse is moving correctly, and when he is not.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The last thing I want to say is that long before all this stuff about Gjest
came up, we at Beaver Dam Farm had decided to do a COMMENORATIVE DVD on
GJEST. -- I had told several people early in the Spring of our
ntentions. -- Gjest is 28 years old now, and frankly, I've been too busy
all these years to really document his life. -- We have bits and pieces of
video on him, but nothing cohesive. -- Well, this is the time, and we're
going to do it this summer. -- He's still in good health, and still looks
pretty good, and is still fertile, or at least he was last spring.
(VERY). -- We also have the extremely unusual situation of having a lot of
his sons and daughters on the farm. -- We have BDF Philippine, 7 yrs.
old --- BDF Nora, 8 yrs. old --- BDF Quest 6 yrs. old. -- BDF Quasar, 6
yrs. old ---- BDF Titan 3 yr. old --- A2Z Agneta, 17 yrs. old ---- BDF
Wilhelmina 3 wks. old & four more Gjest foals to come. -- This is a golden
opportunity for us to document just what an extraordinary stallion Gjest
s. --
The DVD will be professionally done. We'll take the whole summer to do
t. -- We want to show each and every one of the Gjest offspring that we're
so lucky to have on the farm this summer. -- We feel that this DVD will
not only be a commemoration of Gjest's life as a breeding stallion, it will
also be an educational tool for North American Fjord breeders showing them
what a quality stallion is all about. --
And what it's all about is his produce -- His sons and daughters. Their
conformation, health, soundness, athletic ability, movement, attitude,
trainability, work ethic. ----His sons and daughters. -- Nothing else
matters. -- We also hope to have some footage of Gjest granddaughters and
grandsons as well as footage of Gjest offspring in other places. -- (I was
able to get a terrific piece of video on BDF Jason, driven by own Mel Goble
in Aiken, SC. -- Also, when I was in Atlanta earlier this Spring, Cheryl
Beillard got some video of me driving the Bickman's gorgeous mare, Tanja, a
Gjest granddaughter.
Anybody else owning a Gjest son or daughter or granddaughter or grandson,
who has some good tape (or could make one), please contact us. We'd love to
include as many of Gjest's offspring as possible. -- This should be a
grand tribute to a grand old stallion, as well as a solid documentation on
quality Fjord breeding. -- This DVD will be for sale by early fall.
Regards, Carol Rivoire
.
