Hi Julian
I should probably comment on this, since it seems that the STEPS reports
haven't made it clear enough.
STEPS is a "science experiment" not an engineering project.
It is not at all about making and distributing an "operating system" etc., but
about trying to investigate the tradeoffs between "problem oriented languages"
that are "highly fitted" to problem spaces vs. what it takes to design them,
learn them, make them, integrate them, add pragmatics, etc.
Part of the process is trying many variations in interesting (or annoying)
areas. Some of these have been rather standalone, and some have had some
integration from the start.
As mentioned in the reports, we made Frank -- tacking together some of the POLs
that were done as satellites -- to try to get a better handle on what an
integration language might be like that is much better than the current use of
Squeak. It has been very helpful to get something that is evocative of the
whole system working in a practical enough matter to use it (instead of PPT
etc) to give talks that involve dynamic demos. We got some good ideas from this.
But this project is really about following our noses, partly via getting
interested in one facet or another (since there are really too many for just a
few people to cover all of them).
For example, we've been thinking for some time that the pretty workable DBjr
system that is used for visible things - documents, UI, etc. -- should be
almost constructable by hand if we had a better constraint system. This would
be the third working DBjr made by us ...
And -- this year is the 50th anniversary of Sketchpad, which has also got us
re-thinking about some favorite old topics, etc.
This has led us to start putting constraint engines into STEPS, thinking about
how to automatically organize various solvers, what kinds of POLs would be nice
to make constraint systems with, UIs for same, and so forth. Intellectually
this is kind of interesting because there are important overlaps between the
"functions + time stamps" approach of many of our POLs and with constraints and
solvers.
This looks very fruitful at this point!
As you said at the end of your email: this is not an engineering project, but a
series of experiments.
One thought we had about this list is that it might lead others to conduct
similar experiments. Just to pick one example: Reuben Thomas' thesis "Mite" (ca
2000) has many good ideas that apply here. To quote from the opening:"Mite is a
virtual machine intended to provide fast language and machine-neutral
just-in-time
translation of binary-portable object code into high quality native code, with
a formal foundation." So one interesting project could be to try going from
Nile down to a CPU via Mite. Nile is described in OMeta, so this could be a
graceful transition, etc.
In any case, we spend most of our time trying to come up with ideas that might
be powerful for systems design and ways to implement them. We occasionally
write a paper or an NSF report. We sometimes put out code so people can see
what we are doing. But what we will put out at the end of this period will be
very different -- especially in the center -- that what we did for the center
last year.
Cheers and best wishes,
Alan
>________________________________
> From: Julian Leviston <[email protected]>
>To: Fundamentals of New Computing <[email protected]>
>Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
>
>
>As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended version of DBJr
>that sits atop lesserphic, which sits atop gezira which sits atop nile, which
>sits atop maru all of which which utilise ometa and the "worlds" idea.
>
>
>If you look at the http://vpri.org/html/writings.php page you can see a
>pattern of progression that has emerged to the point where Frank exists. From
>what I understand, maru is the finalisation of what began as pepsi and coke.
>Maru is a simple s-expression language, in the same way that pepsi and coke
>were. In fact, it looks to have the same syntax. Nothing is the layer
>underneath that is essentially a symbolic computer - sitting between maru and
>the actual machine code (sort of like an LLVM assembler if I've understood it
>correctly).
>
>
>They've hidden Frank in plain sight. He's a patch-together of all their
>experiments so far... which I'm sure you could do if you took the time to
>understand each of them and had the inclination. They've been publishing as
>much as they could all along. The point, though, is you have to understand
>each part. It's no good if you don't understand it.
>
>
>If you know anything about Alan & VPRI's work, you'd know that their focus is
>on getting children this stuff in front as many children as possible, because
>they have so much more ability to connect to the heart of a problem than
>adults. (Nothing to do with age - talking about minds, not bodies here).
>Adults usually get in the way with their "stuff" - their "knowledge" sits like
>a kind of a filter, denying them the ability to see things clearly and
>directly connect to them unless they've had special training in relaxing that
>filter. We don't know how to be simple and direct any more - not to say that
>it's impossible. We need children to teach us meta-stuff, mostly this direct
>way of experiencing and looking, and this project's main aim appears to be to
>provide them (and us, of course, but not as importantly) with the tools to do
>that. Adults will come secondarily - to the degree they can't embrace new
>stuff ;-). This is what we need as an entire populace
- to increase our general understanding - to reach breakthroughs previously
not thought possible, and fast. Rather than changing the world, they're
providing the seed for children to change the world themselves.
>
>
>This is only as I understand it from my observation. Don't take it as gospel
>or even correct, but maybe you could use it to investigate the parts of frank
>a little more and with in-depth openness :) The entire project is an
>experiment... and that's why they're not coming out and saying "hey guys this
>is the product of our work" - it's not a linear building process, but an
>intensively creative process, and most of that happens within oneself before
>any results are seen (rather like boiling a kettle).
>
>
>http://www.vpri.org/vp_wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
>
>On the bottom of that page, you'll see a link to the tinlizzie site that
>references "experiment" and the URL has dbjr in it... as far as I understand
>it, this is as much frank as we've been shown.
>
>
>http://tinlizzie.org/dbjr/
>
>
>:)
>Julian
>
>
>On 26/02/2012, at 9:41 AM, Martin Baldan wrote:
>
>Is that the case? I'm a bit confused. I've read the fascinating reports about
>Frank, and I was wondering what's the closest thing one can download and run
>right now. Could you guys please clear it up for me?
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Martin
>>
>>
>>On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Julian Leviston <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Isn't the cola basically irrelevant now? aren't they using maru instead? (or
>>rather isn't maru the renamed version of coke?)
>>>
>>>Julian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On 26/02/2012, at 2:52 AM, Martin Baldan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your reply. I'm looking into it.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
>>>
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>
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