I have no idea whether anything in here is productive or just reiteration of the same old themes. I doubt it will be coherent or persuasive, but this discussion is too important not to try to say something. Opinions were solicited, so here's such an opinion.
I don't really know if a discussion at this point is wise, particularly from me and my verbosity. :). So skip if skeptical, and abort if you start finding my words, well, unproductive. :) -Alec ---- > What I find not convincing is the slogan "No censorship". I think this > is a bad argument. Okay, I think that's my cue. I'm definitely in "No Censorship" camp, so let my try to explain why that argument has such pull for some of us. - To begin with, please consider that NOTCENSORED has been the law of the land for many years and Wikipedia has prospered under it. It's not a new idea. What's new is this idea that "potential offensiveness" is a threat to us, and thus, a valid criterion for making editorial decision. That would be a huge deviation from our very successful status quo. Maybe you think it would be a good change, maybe you think would be a bad change, but I think we can all agree it would be a very CONTROVERSIAL change among Wikimedians. And when you stop and think about it, of course any such proposal is _bound_ to be very very controversial among those very individuals who are already deeply invested in a NPOV/NON-CENSORED project. After all, we've spent years explaining NPOV / NOTCENSORED to Muslims over Muhammad images, for example, and to Christians over Piss-Christ. We've defended racist imagery, we've defended neo-nazi hate-sites. We've committed to not-censored, we've worked for NOTCENSORED, we've offended totally innocent people so wikipedia could be NOTCENSORED, and it was even theoretically possible somebody might have died over NOTCENSORED. We did this because Wikipedia successfully convinced us that an uncensored encyclopedia was a wonderful thing. And we've grown very attached to it and the principles it espoused. Maybe we do need a "potentially non-offensive" project in addition. But if there is to be a "Brave New Encyclopedia" that promises freedom from potential offense, shouldn't it be started as a NEW project with a NEW userbase and a NEW editing community that's committed to these NEW principles? I'm skeptical that that a "potential offfense" can actually work, even as its own project. But, no harm in trying. Meanwhile, our Wikipedia, the "NPOV/NOTCENSORED" Wikipedia, does work! And It continues to work! Wikipedia ain't broke-- don't fracture the community into bits by trying to impose a "fix". -- Some say: "What's the difference between deleting offensive material and deleting anything else? REALLY, isn't ANY deletion, on some level, censorship?" Well, no. :) Normal run-of-the-mill deletions (e.g. of nonsense, etc) HELP our mission by preserving our limited computing resources. Censorship HURTS our mission by intentionally making it harder for our readers to find legal, legitimate information they themselves are actively trying to access. Normal decisions are justified using terms like "usefulness" and "notable." Censorship is justified using terms like "potential-offensiveness", "pornographic", "a threat to children", or "immoral". Normal decisions are democratic, culture-neutral, and are based on verifiable facts. Censorship is beyond debate, it's not culture-neutral, it's imposed rather than accepted, and it's based on unstated emotional biases and prejudices. (And if those distinctions don't help determine which is which-- Censorship is the one that's really, really controversial around here. :) ) -- > Let me take some example. Ar-wp decides per community concensus not > to use Mohammed images. Seen in the light of en-wp rules, this is a > censorship. > If we maintain "no censorship" then ar-wp must remove that concensus. If not, > we cannot maintain the "no censorship" slogan. Admittedly, "free-information" people can be very black and white-- but even I'm not quite THIS black and white. :) I, for one, am not at all troubled that WMF might host a project that, via TRUE consensus, decides to be, by my standards, censored. (I actually really wish we had a few censored english-language projects lying around, so people would be less tempted to try to co-opt EnWiki.) I don't oppose people 'censoring' themselves if that's truly their choice-- what I oppose is someone censoring US against our consent. What I oppose is WMF trying take a NONCENSORED project swap out NPOV/NOTCENSORED in favor of a fiat-imposed "potential-offensiveness" standard. > Maybe a user is against every political censorship but is uncomfortable about > having religious insulting images. Is he "for" or "not for" censorship? There's nothing wrong with wanting to avoid offending people. I have a LOT of sympathy and patience for people who think that wikipedia should be censored, ESPECIALLY with the Muhammad issue where issues of culture, religion, race, and violence are superimposed over issues of NPOV and NOTCENSORED. Being uncomfortable is a understandable and laudable response. Sincerely. Many many great minds throughout history have reached the conclusion that some sub-populations need "protection" from "potentially offensive" information, and I certainly can't prove them wrong. So if somebody undergoes a 'conversion experience' and realizes that what we've been doing here these many years, providing free access to potentially-offensive information, is actually morally wrong-- well that's okay with me. Maybe they're right and I'm wrong. A change of heart isn't a sin. But if that individual really feels strongly about stance, then maybe they should reconsider serving in a capacity that requires them to help provide "Free Access to All The World's Information". Cause the world's information is really very offensive. And providing that information, offensive or not, is what we do here. -- If "No porn or other potential offensive material" this had been the rule all along, that'd be one thing. But that's not what our social contract has been. Our social contract included NPOV, its corollary NOTCENSORED, and a strong commitment to the consensus process. Now, ten years in, these rules suddenly aren't good enough anymore? The clock has struck Midnight, the coach has turned back into a pumpkin, and wikipedians are no longer able to form consensus on any tough issues? Nonsense. I thought we all agreed EnWiki/WMF wasn't going to be child-safe (or conservative-safe, or liberal-safe, or muslim-safe, work-safe or nudity-safe or anythingelse-safe). In fact, I thought we all agreed on that years ago. I thought that was what we stood for. So, in May, it felt a little "slap-in-the-face"-ish when WMF, having spent years collecting our edits and our dollars under the banners of "NPOV", "NOTCENSORED" and "CONSENSUS", suddenly surrendered at the first sign of trouble from Fox. It seems naive now, but I think most of us had assumed that, when inevitable US-based pressure against our content arose, the board members would all side WITH the projects and AGAINST FoxNews. I don't think anyone foresaw our then-leader publicly confirming Fox's allegations and insisting that not only DO we have too much porn, but that we have so much "hard code" pornography that required an emergency fiat deletion campaign. I definitely never EVER expect to see such individuals deleting in-use images over literally scores of objections. To put this into perspective if free-information isn't essential to you-- this was a little bit like being a volunteer at your local library for years-- helping the staff, donating your valuable time and limited funds, etc. Then one day, you come in and see that someone from Fox News has come to your public library while you were gone and managed to convinced half the librarians that they need to start burning through the stacks. Yeah, it's intense experience. -- #"A 'Thought' Experiment" What if we did actually allow "potential offensiveness" as a criterion? What does that kind of a debate look like? Suppose, for instance that an admin showed up and demanded that a notable work of art be deleted on the ground that it was "potentially offensive". How do you defend against that charge? "Offensiveness" isn't really a NPOV-Verifiable fact, so it's up to personal opinion. No matter what you say, somebody else can always say "Well, I don't care if this IS a famous work of art-- to me it's just old porn. And old porn is still porn. I still find this content to be offensive and I still want it deleted and I'm going to delete it myself and i'll block you if you try to stop me!" What does kind of a deletion debate that look like?? Is it civil? Does it encourage mutual respect? Does it promote the free exchange of information? No no.. This approach was tried and it failed miserably: http://tinyurl.com/2fuo3eq And it was destined to fail, because no one can fairly play the role of moral censor for a population as diverse as Wikipedia. Not me, not you, not Jimmy, nobody. No one can fairly decide what is "too offensive for 12 million people spread across the globe". Can't be done. All such a censor can do is decide what's "too offensive to me". So if you're asked to be a censor, you do what you know-- you delete stuff that offends you but other people think is important, and you keep stuff you think is important but that other people find offensive. And once you start down that road, it's little more than modern-day bigotry that ultimately makes the judgments. Deleting "offensive art" may not be how you guys meant for things to go, but it is where things ended up, and quickly too. You slid right down the slippery slope-- just than like we free-speechers always said you would only, only far faster than anyone could have predicted. Before anyone could believe it, the art was being taken down off the walls and heaped on the fire. Jimbo demonstrated he was utterly unable to responsibly use "potential-offensiveness" as a deletion criterion. For us now to ask ALL of our editors to use a similar criteria would only bring far, far worse results. The "potentially offensive" approach just plain doesn't work. (And even if it DID work-- it's not the approach we signed up for. ) -- > Searching for a community consensus cannot work in such black > and white manner. That's quite a bold statement. (or at least, I've seen some bold statements on this subject) I don't think our current projects are fundamentally flawed. I see no sign that consensus can't work here. On the contrary, May seemed to demonstrate that not only CAN consensus form in these situations, but sometimes the consensus can be quite deafening. I think the real issue is that that consensus HAS been reached on the NOTCENSORED / NPOV/Sexual Content policies issues-- the community consensus just match the pre-designated conclusion, and so it was thus ruled to be the outcome of a "broken and flawed" process, something the community just can't handle on its own, not without grown-up help. -------- # Spot the Difference > What difference is this agree-with-me-or-I-will-boycott-you position > to the ace-wp template of boycotting Wikipedia because it contains Mohammed > image? Great question. Turns out there's a really really simple difference. Wikipedia never promised anyone that "Wikipedia Doesn't Show Muhammad Pictures"! But Wikipedia promised everyone "Wikipedia Is Not Censored" and "Wikipedia is written from a NPOV" Allowing Muhammad images doesn't involve any breach of promise. But allowing censorship and non-neutral POV does involve a breach of trust. So a better analogy is this: Suppose a very conservative mosque, after years of forbidding images of Muhammad, suddenly reversed itself, and started distributing the offensive cartoons of Muhammad. Its members would, rightly, feel betrayed. Wikipedia isn't a mosque, but we have unique culture of our own. Seeing 19th century art deleted as "old porn"-- well that's as disrespectful of OUR traditions, just as offensive images of Muhammad might would be disrespectful in the context of a mosque. I think NOTCENSORED is fundamental and inseparable from Wikipedia's mission. But-- even if we can't convince you that NOTCENSORED is fundamentally important to Wikipedia, at least recognize that it's very important to many many many Wikipedians. > Refusing every discussion, no compromise at all, I find this a very strange > stance for a Wikimedian. Indeed: http://tinyurl.com/2w2ayy2 Things work better via traditional consensus building. Even I, free-speecher that I am, would very sincerely abide, in relative silence, by a TRUE consensus to repeal NOTCENSORED. In May, it seems like some people got the idea that since the discussion wasn't producing the results they wanted, they'd just stop all discussion and start enforcing instead. And If ever you want to kill civil discussion, just say "We can discuss later after I'm done implementing it" Once that happened, the time for discussion was basically over and the time for revising roles had begun. When someone is done listening but not yet done acting, the only remaining options are blocks and boycotts. I'm not happy about that, but there was no alternative. -- If we seem fundamentalist, perhaps we are a little. But this sort of free-information advocacy is a part of Wikipedia's very DNA-- from our open-source platform to our free-licensed content, from our open community anyone can join to the open protocols that our internet runs on. It may be an annoying and pseudo-fundamentalist stance, but it is part of how we got here. Free-information advocacy built Wikipedia. Many of us thought that, via projects like Wikimedia, we were helping to eliminate censorship from the rest of the world. Many of us write software, to make free laptops, for kids we'll never ever meet, just so that people all around the world can have a chance to see what free speech is really like. Some of us are here because help STOP censorship around the world, not to help perpetuate it, and certainly not to subjected to it ourselves. -- In our early days, when we had nothing to lose, no big media interviews, and no way to be blackmailed, NOTCENSORED seemed to work just fine for us. Now that we are more successful and independent than ever, now, in our finest houst, NOW suddenly this long-cherished principle has to go? Now, some faction of our community, Jimmy first among them, has decided that after years of success, we should trade in our "Not Censored" Wikipedia for a swiss-cheesed encyclopedia in the hopes of making a "potentially non-offensive" project?? I have no idea what the purpose or cause of this is-- a personal religious conversion? an acquired distaste for negative press? The promise of more donations from a conservative big-money donor or a prominent university? The influence of Russian spies? Contact from an extraterrestrial intelligence in the form of a monolith? A windfall for Wikia if our projects substantially narrow their scope? All of these? Something else entirely? Or maybe no reason at all. I have no idea what shiny new bauble we hope to obtain, if only we'd renounce a few of our core principles. But I really hope we don't take the deal. Is there something different about the world of 2010 that makes 2009's "Wikipedia is Not Censored" policy suddenly unfeasible? Have we been spending nine years destroying the minds of the youth worldwide to such an extent that an immediate 180-degree change of course is necessary? -- > What also made me very sad in this thread is to see that some community > members obviously had taken a very foundamentalistic position. Either > you agree with me, otherwise I will quit and fork. Well, I'm probably the biggest offender of anyone here on this one, because I think it's ESSENTIAL that we fork if WMF adopted a scope that excluded material on the grounds of "potential-offense". But our motivation isn't malicious. It's not: "You're guys are evil and we should all quit rather than associate with you." Not in the slightest. Instead, our motivation stems from wanting to protect Wikipedia and its current policies: "We love Wikipedia the way it is! So if wikipedia does get deleted ,if it's replaced with an identically-named but "potentially-non-offensive" project , our first priority should be restore the uncensored Wikipedia and continue working on it." However, I'm infinitely glad that the foundation appears to be stepping away from the brink. The best home for a free, uncensored wiki remains the Wikimedia Foundation. But ultimately, the greatest protection Wikipedia has is that there are other homes out there for a free, uncensored collection of the world's information, where everyone gets offended equally and "I find this offensive" carries no weight. After all, Wikipedia has already shown us just how wonderful it is to have such a project! No matter what WMF does, there will always a place for Wikipedia-as-it-currently-is. A lot of us want such a project to continue, a lot of us want to improve THAT project, and a lot of us want to protect that project. If fact, one of the main reasons so many of us gave money last year to WMF was because, ironically enough, we were told those funds would help PROTECT that very same Wikipedia from outside pressures. But ultimately, not even millions in donations was really able to truly "protect" a free, uncensored Wikipedia, it seems. (Indeed, in the back of my mind, I sometimes worry that our new-found fund-raising success might somehow be part of the problem. Perhaps we've seen these unilateral actions precisely because funding is now so secure that whole swaths of our content and our community can now be considered "expendable". Heck, perhaps some fanatic with very deep pockets is offering to hire the entire board, en masse, with high-paying salaries, if only they'll delete the right paintings. Those are just pulled from thin-air, of course, but clearly, something is going on now that wasn't going on from 2001-2009-- and the amazingly successful fund raising is one of the few big differences I can think of.) Fortunately, where $10 million fails, Creative Commons succeeds. IT DOES protect Wikipedia, because foundations and servers can come and go, but Wikipedia will endure. And there is no good reason for it not to endure right here. It's done really here, these past 9 years, after all. Let's go for 20, and in the mean time, let's give the green light to people who might like to try their hand at making a non-offensive english-language encyclopedia here at Wikimedia. Alec "been writing this for WAY too long" Conroy _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l