Isn't the problem because 'complexity' is an observational attribute and
not one that is intrinsic to the universe/domain? There will be no
agreement until a formalism can show a connection with prior formalisms
(IMHO). Yaneer's problem is that it depends on the language one uses.
Suppose we meet an entirely superior (alien) race that communicates
using much more compact information methods. Remember the encyclopedia
(or the library of congress - you choose) on a stick story? One very
precise measurement encoded the entire contents of the book(s).
I was wondering if the problem might be in the name 'complexity' and
that 'aggregation theory' might be a better name. Then I found this
paper on "Spatial Aggregation Theory" that might be a missing link to
Visualization?
http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/yip96spatial.html
Mind you, I'd need some help to get a thorough understanding of it. Any
takers?
Robert C
Mikhail Gorelkin wrote:
...let's use this: the minimal description, which "works". ? --Mikhail
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Phil Henshaw <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 18, 2007 11:10 PM
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
...maybe a definition that to go with Yaneer's riddle, and that
fits with all, is that any individual thing is complex beyond
measure and any explanations are all comparatively very simple,
differing among them only by whether they work or not.
Phil Henshaw ¸¸¸¸.·´ ¯ `·.¸¸¸¸
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/>
-----Original Message-----
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Mikhail Gorelkin
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:31 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
It seems I found a more fundamental definition: "So, if you
want to characterize the complexity of an object, think about
how much you would have to write in order to describe it.
Would it take a sentence, a paragraph, a few pages, a book, or
many books? Count the number of characters in the description.
This is complexity." --Yaneer Bar-Yam "Making things works.
Solving complex problems in a complex world", p. 54. So,
linear systems have simpler and shorter descriptions than
non-linear ones. And the same is true for centralized vs.
decentralized systems... Any thoughts? --Mikhail
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Alfredo CV <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 18, 2007 1:42 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
To decide if a phenomena is complex maybe It's necessary
to identify *patterns of self organization in the
"behavior" *of the small units of individual that conform
the population of interest. Maybe It's necesary to check
the *lack of centralized control* and the* existence of
some stable states*. I think these three features are the
diagnostic features of complexity. I guess....
I don't know what Hayes says but I'll think about these
three features for health insurance, medicare, Social
Security and Pensions in my country... (in fact is not
mine, belongs to the richest and the multinationals....
anyhow).
Regards
Alfredo CV
health insurance,
Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and the uninsured
Mikhail Gorelkin wrote:
+1: I guess that complexity cannot be expressed adequately even in
a term of computability. ? --Mikhail
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mikhail Gorelkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"
<friam@redfish.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
Just two thoughts: 1) it seems that complexity is a more fundamental category than linearity / non-linearity, which are parts of a
sophisticated ***formal*** system; 2) I assume there are types of complexity (and, therefore, many - I mean really many - types)
that cannot be expressed in any formal system (beyond linearity / non-linearity). Something like Gödel's theorem. ? --Mikhail
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <friam@redfish.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
Alfredo,
Good question. In fact, the question of the day, for the Hayes
talk.
Mysterious non linear effects in Hayes data leading to the
conclusion good
hearted efforts in one direction lead to the opposite result.
I guess "mysterious non-linearity" is a good clue that the
phenomenon is
complex.
Nick .
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:12:09 -0500
From: Alfredo CV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] **today ** Lecture Wed Sep 12 12:30p: Jim
Hayes -
Hedging Complex and Chaotic Private Health Insurance Markets and the
Uninsured
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi
Of course it?s impossible to me to know details of the speeches you
usually have. In the distance I suppose that the first purpose of
each
one of these speeches is to know and evaluate a broad type of cases
where complexity is used to understand phenomena. I wonder what
makes
some phenomena suitable to be studied with a "complex" approach.
What
must somebody take in consideration to decide that is studying a
complex
phenomena?
Regards,
Alfredo CV
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
