Jack, I'm not sure I catch your meaning re: preening. I really don't see why this would be, or is, the case. Reductionism has a place at thermodynamic equilibrium. It just becomes problematic at non-equilibrium - with irreversible systems. I disagree with that there is intellectual opportunism. There is an opportunity to share real information regarding the way complexity in systems works, which I thought was the basis for this forum. If you are not persuaded by Prigogine, that's OK. Of course I may be wrong. Maybe it is a game of intellectual one-upsmanship to some contributors. In that case, I wasn't smart enough to catch on to the game being played. I don't resonate much with philosophical dialog - but some in the group seem to enjoy such sparring. I find the study, modeling and simulation of complex systems challenging enough without philosophizing or game playing. But when the phenomenon can be replicated experimentally, and patterns identified, that's reward enough for me. Unfortunately, that study takes some hard, boring work which is how I characterize what I do, although some might find it more fun to pontificate, speculate and fantasize. Far be it from me to stand in the way of the enjoyment of others. I get the impression sometimes that people would rather enjoy keeping complexity mysterious - even magical. Not so for me. Complexity has become just another phenomenon that can be understood by us mere mortals. While it loses it fantastic qualities, not so its beauty and elegance. Ken
_____ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Leibowitz Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 7:01 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant (meaning old) galaxies, and quasars I don't know whether I'm being addressed. Please assume that some others among us are familiar with Prigogine ,etc. I'm bowing out of all of this preening. Please exclude me from the e mail list hereafter. No offense intended. There seems to be nothing one can say that doesn't invite intellectual opportunism here. End Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Roberts To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee <mailto:friam@redfish.com> Group Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant (meaning old) galaxies, and quasars Me, I'm a simulationist. I run these large, complex population mobility ABMs in the utmost confidence that I can make the output support whichever claim happens to be the current politically expedient one. Pragmatism trumps vague Reductionism every time. --Doug On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 6:35 PM, Kenneth Lloyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: John, I tend to be a Prigoginist, see: End of Certainty, Ilya Prigogine. I suggest you consider the case for thermodynamic non-equilibrium and the problem it creates for reductionism. Some of us have come to understand complexity by modeling wavelet perturbations on temporally extended, recurrent, non-linear network graphs. The results have been very enlightening. Caveat: such results have been met with great skepticism, if not total disbelief, within the FRIAM community. Ken _____ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John F. Kennison Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 12:08 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies Hi, I have been trying to figure out what my position on reductionism might be, but I am running into problems. Does reductionism mean a belief that the best strategy is always to analyze complex things in terms of simpler components (with, I presume, a small number of irreducible parts)? Or is it a belief that everything in nature is nothing more than a sum of simple components? --John On 9/5/08 12:13 PM, "Jack Leibowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: To Gunther: I dont think the word is horrible. Please note the quotes around the word in my e-mail. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "Günther Greindl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <friam@redfish.com> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Young but distant gallaxies Hi, > This doesn't mean strictly remaining with restraints belonging under the > heading of that horrible word "reductionism". Why do you think that the word is horrible? (be specific please ;-) Cheers, Günther -- Günther Greindl Department of Philosophy of Science University of Vienna [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://www.complexitystudies.org/ Thesis: http://www.complexitystudies.org/proposal/ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org _____ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
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