But Owen, we are NOT required to buy car insurance! It is an if-then thing: If you want to drive, then you need insurance. That doesn't map on well to health care.
I agree that the health care debate is not just about profit. At least one other thing it is about is whether or not to consider health care a "human right". I for one (and I anticipate being skewered for saying it) don't understand this line of reasoning. I am told that "it is unfair that rich people get better medical care than poor people", and what I hear is "it is unfair that rich people drive better cars than poor people." If we really just wanted to make health care cheaper we would up training for people to self-diagnose and self-treat easy problems, we would reform malpractice litigation, and we'd invest a boat load in grief and end of life counseling so that people were, in general, more accepting of death (their own and other's). If we wanted reform in the industry, the best we should be pushing for is to enforce contracts so that the insurance companies pay out what they are supposed to. Insurance is a business. It is a gambling game, where you try to get people to give you more money than you think you will have to pay out. It is true that some times insurance companies make insane profits, but it doesn't take too many people who cost them a million dollars each to shift things around. The basic model for any insurance situation should be to give a security blanket to people who are not at much risk (i.e., give healthy people insurance against crippling disasters). You know, like the home owner's insurance you don't go running to every time your toilet is stopped up, but you are glad you have if there is a bad fire. And even if you think that people have the right to health care, how can anyone argue that people should be guaranteed the right to be insured?!? Car insurance companies turn down people who are high risk, ditto home owner's insurance, flood insurance, business insurance, etc., etc., how is health care any different? The whole medical situation in this country is crazy, I got in a 15 minute long argument with a doctor who wouldn't tell me how much a procedure cost, only that my insurance wouldn't cover it. The notion that I would consider simply paying for something the insurance didn't cover made no sense to her. Blah, Eric P.S. Aesthetically, I would actually be much less offended by fully socialized medicine - take the business out of it, and have the state run everything - just stop trying to tell perfectly reasonable businesses they can't follow simple and intelligible business models. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 11:26 AM, Owen Densmore <o...@backspaces.net> wrote: > >I don't buy the health care debate being quite so one sided. > Certainly there is self interest in the insurance world, but there is >equal opposing interest. > > >>Businesses both large and small realize health care in other countries is >subsidizing their competition. Thus Detroit was first in line to lobby >for health care. >> > >>Doctors too are lobbying against the absurd malpractice litigation >which has become a barrier to practice. >> > >> >> >>There are a few steps that could be made that would get little resistance >from the corporate devils you paint. For example, why not require people >to pay for a reasonable insurance plan? We are required to do so for car >insurance. Our current practice drives folks to use the emergency room >for their doctor at a huge and silly additional cost. >> > >>So: 1) Require universal health care insurance. But 2) Remove >preconditions. See the yin/yang? Insurance companies have already >said that pair would work for them, as have the AMA/doctors. And yes, 3) >Subsidize those who cannot afford the base rate. And 4) limit malpractice >litigation. It is claimed that just these 4 steps would reduce the cost >of current health care and increase businesses competitiveness significantly. > And properly put in place the right market counter forces to the evil >corporations. >> > >>We ourselves need to change. How many of us spend as much on medical >care as we do our cars? In my calculations, cars and their care still >cost more. Compare auto leasing costs for two cars for the standard >family and insurance for same and they're surprisingly close. Add upkeep >of the car and they are way ahead. >> > >> >> > -- >Owen > > > >> >>On Feb 14, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote: > >Pamela,> > >>I think the healthcare issue goes way beyond just the usual corporate >profit protection, pay for play political game. Look at how polarized the >nation has become over just this issue alone. Look at how many people >don't believe that the healthcare issue is really about healthcare >insurance industry profit protection. > > >>We truly are a nation of idiots. We deserve Rush Limbaugh, Sarah >Palin, and Pat Robertson. >> > >>Model that, if you like. The agents in the individual based >simulation won't need much sophistication. > > >>--Doug > >>On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 8:00 AM, >Pamela McCorduck <<#>> >wrote: > When >Kennedy envisioned going to the moon, no lobby existed to fight ferociously for >the sole right to take the profits from going to the moon, and the sole right >to decide who gets to go. > > If you read the not-very-deep subtext in this >fight, you will see that it's not about giving better healthcare to Americans >(which we desperately need) but about protecting the enormous profits of the >healthcare insurance industry. It's dressed up in "right to choose," and >"privacy between doctor and patient," and "keep the government out of medical >care," but it's really about profit protection. From several different and >reliable sources (one of them a congressional candidate) I have heard that >since early last summer, the insurance and pharmaceuticals industries have been >spending over $1 million per day on lobbying. It continues. You can do the >arithmetic. > > The media regularly reports on how much better, cheaper, >and more effective medical plans are all around the developed world. It doesn't >penetrate $1 million-plus per day.> > > > > On Feb 13, 2010, at 3:55 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > > > >> >> >> > Where does all this >whining about health care > come from? Everyone in Germany has a health > >insurance, it is obligatory. There is general > agreement here that the >European (and esp. > the German) health care system is better > and more >social than the one in the US. > The USA obviously needs a better health >care > system. Where is the American optimism and > the "i believe we can >do it" spirit? I've heard > that optimism and positive thinking is a >typical > American attitude. > > America is lacking a vision, something >like > Kennedy's vision to bring a man to the moon > and back. Military and >NASA won't do it > this time. A vision or a common dream which > would >foster technological innovation. Schmidt > mentioned "renewable energy" and >green > technology. What about a clean L.A. with > fresh air? A large scale >scientific initiative > to create the first AI would be another one. > >America would have the resources to do it, it > has the companies with the >largest data centers. > It should be proud of Google, Microsoft, > Amazon, >and Apple. It is difficult to understand > why it disputes about health care >so long. > > -J. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger >Critchlow > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Sent: >Saturday, February 13, 2010 6:54 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sources of >Innovation > > [...] We're too busy defending ourselves from hedge fund >vampires and health care ghouls to worry about growth. Say what you will >about the undead, they steal their profits fair and square and invest them in >the rule of law. > > > >============================================================ > FRIAM Applied >Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's >College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at <http://www.friam.org> > > > > > > > > >============================================================ >FRIAM Applied >Complexity Group listserv >Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's >College >lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at <http://www.friam.org> > > > > > > > > ============================================================ >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > Eric Charles Professional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601 Eric Charles Professional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
