Nick, The notion of information that Shannon proposes takes a very idealized understanding of "communication." I think it is a good model for machine "communication" and things like that (i.e., metaphorical communication), but it will not make you very happy, what with your feet-on-the-ground study of actual communication between organisms. For example, as I understand Shannon's information theory, there must be countless things transmitted from one organism to another that do not count as information, but which nevertheless are 'sent' by one organism and alter the behavior of the other. Also, we cannot have a conversation over whether or not it is in the interests of the organism to base their behavior on the information they receive form other organisms, because 'information' has been defined as that on which it is good to base behavior. Also, also, we also cannot talk about the transmission of information already known by the receiver, because if it is already known, then the message is not information. That is, if 1) we are flipping a coin, 2) I see the coin land heads, 3) you say 'heads', then your message contained no information.
Eric P.S. Oddly, for the last point, I probably need to say that your message contained no information 'about the coin.' In information theory land they don't want to count it as information that your saying 'heads' tells me that you also have seen the coin as landing a heads (i.e., they don't want to count the information it gives me about you). If they counted that, then all messages would contain information. On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 09:44 AM, "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > >Grant, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This seems backwards to me, but I got properly thrashed for my last few postings so I am putting my hat over the wall very carefully here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I thought……i thought …. the information in a message was the number of bits by which the arrival of the message decreased the uncertainty of the receiver. So, let’s say you are sitting awaiting the result of a coin toss, and I am on the other end of the line flipping the coin. Before I say “heads” you have 1 bit of uncertainty; afterwards, you have none. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The reason I am particularly nervous about saying this is that it, of course, holds out the possibility of negative information. Some forms of communication, appeasement gestures in animals, for instance, have the effect of increasing the range of behaviors likely to occur in the receiver. This would seem to correspond to a negative value for the information calculation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Nick > > > > >>> > >From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Grant Holland >Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 11:07 PM >To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; Steve Smith >Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Quote of the week > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Interesting note on "information" and "uncertainty"... > >Information is Uncertainty. The two words are synonyms. > >Shannon called it "uncertainty", contemporary Information theory calls it "information". > >It is often thought that the more information there is, the less uncertainty. The opposite is the case. > >In Information Theory (aka the mathematical theory of communications) , the degree of information I(E) - or uncertainty U(E) - of an event is measurable as an inverse function of its probability, as follows: > >U(E) = I(E) = log( 1/Pr(E) ) = log(1) - log( Pr(E) ) = -log( Pr(E) ). > >Considering I(E) as a random variable, Shannon's entropy is, in fact, the first moment (or expectation) of I(E). Shannon entropy = exp( I(E) ). > >Grant > >On 6/5/2011 2:20 PM, Steve Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Philosophy is to physics as pornography is to sex. It's cheaper, it's easier and some people seem to prefer it." > > > > > > > > >Modern Physics is contained in Realism which is contained in Metaphysics which I contained in all of Philosophy. > >I'd be tempted to counter: > > > > > > >"Physics is to Philosophy as the Missionary Position is to the Kama Sutra" > > > > > > > >Physics also appeals to Phenomenology and Logic (the branch of Philosophy were Mathematics is rooted) and what we can know scientifically is constrained by Epistemology (the nature of knowledge) and phenomenology (the nature of conscious experience). > >It might be fair to say that many (including many of us here) who hold Physics up in some exalted position simply dismiss or choose to ignore all the messy questions considered by *the rest of* philosophy. Even if we think we have clear/simple answers to the questions, I do not accept that the questions are not worthy of the asking. > >The underlying point of the referenced podcast is, in fact, that Physics, or Science in general might be rather myopic and limited by it's own viewpoint by definition. > > > > > > > "The more we know, the less we understand." > > > > > > > >Philosophy is about understanding, physics is about knowledge first and understanding only insomuch as it is a part of natural philosophy. > >Or at least this is how my understanding is structured around these matters. > >- Steve > > > > > > >> > > >On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Robert Holmes <<#>> wrote: > > > > > > >>From the BBC's science podcast "<http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/timc>": > > > > >> > >"Philosophy is to physics as pornography is to sex. It's cheaper, it's easier and some people seem to prefer it." > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >Not to be pedantic, but I suspect that s/he has conflated "philosophy" with "new age", as much of science owes itself to philosophy. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >marcos > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at <http://www.friam.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at <http://www.friam.org> > > > ============================================================ >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > Eric Charles Professional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601
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