You guys clearly know too much about philosophy and not enough about zombies. Your notion that there is a single type of zombie has long been discredited. Here's a handy chart that I hope can inform your discussion.
http://www.geekologie.com/image.php?path=/2010/10/05/zombie-chart-full.jpg —R On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Nicholas Thompson < nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Glen, > > Wow! This Zombie thing is WAY more complicated than I thought it was. > Although I haven't read any Kant first hand, I hear him lurking in the > background. For me, a thermostat/furnace system is a telic system. It > acts > in such a way as to maintain a set point. So do I, sometimes. Me and my > furnace: we are telic systems. > > All the best, > > Nick > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On > Behalf > Of glen ropella > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 9:49 AM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: [FRIAM] faith, zombies, and crazy people (was America and the > Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist) > > On 09/14/2012 06:56 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > For me, consciousness is a point of view, and any telic system has a > > point of view. Zombies are telic systems, no? > > That's a great question. I would answer no. Zombies cannot be telic (as I > understand that word, of course) because they are enslaved by their > context. > They are not ends in and of themselves. They are tools whose purpose has > been installed in them by some non-zombie actor. > > FWIW, the Rosenites would disagree with me. They'd claim that a zombie > (were such possible) would be an organism closed to efficient cause > (agency). From this, they claim such closure allows anticipation, which, > in > turn, allows final cause (purpose) ... all without any requirement for > _consciousness_ ... but with a requirement for reflective self-reference > (aka closure). Getting from reflection to consciousness might not be that > hard. And I support them in their quest. ;-) But they haven't proven the > closure to me. I believe we organisms are only partially closed (to any of > the causes). Complete closure, in any of the causes, looks more like death > to me. So, there's something missing from their framework ... to the > limited extent to which I understand it. > > Now, we might be able to reverse engineer a tool's purpose from its > attributes. And in that sense, a zombie might express a goal or purpose > and > be called "telic" ... but that purpose would not be its _own_. > Perhaps a tool is telic, but it's not autotelic. > > And this is where "faith" and "crazy" enter. When we can't reverse > engineer > a person's purpose ... or more accurately ... when we can't empathize ... > we > can't tell ourselves a story in which context their actions make sense, > then > they're "acting on faith" or they're crazy. It is this ability to > empathize > ... for your neurons to be stimulated similarly to your referent's by > observing their behavior ... that presents us with the zombie paradox. On > the one hand, telling a believable story turns you into a _machine_, a > tool, > without personal responsibility or accountability. ("My parents made me > this way!") But on the other hand, not telling a story makes you alien, > crazy, a wart that has to be removed. > > Interesting people walk that fine line between adequately explaining > themselves but leaving just enough craziness and mystery to preserve their > identity, to avoid being a zombie. I usually fail and am often accused of > being a tool. >8^) > > > Anyway, if you are curious, it's laid out in the conversation with the > > Devils Advocate on page 16 of the attached. > > > > Let me know what you think, if you have time to look at it. > > I will read it. Thanks. But in case it's not obvious, you must know that > I > don't take this stuff very seriously. I only think/talk about this stuff > to > distract me from work. ;-) So, it's unlikely that I'll be able to give it > the attention that it and you deserve. > > -- > glen =><= Hail Eris! > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, > unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
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