Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second one is under control, so why delay my response.
Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the referenced paper, certainly. Rather our little group's pronounced tendency to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I say it?) philosophical meanings of words. Like, say, just to pick a random sample: "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal", "entropic", and "forces". And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe. Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very clearly, which is that *nobody* has even the slightest glimmer of understanding of our true cosmological origins. Even the events after that instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?) are only sparsely understood. Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang. But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we? Deeply, and philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence" again, let's take the discussion in a new direction. Sorry for the Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist paywall. The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=501821756549668&set=a.477892902275887.114170.334816523250193&type=1&theater --TrollBoi On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Stephen Guerin <stephen.gue...@redfish.com>wrote: > Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite. > > Here's the paper referenced in the phys.org post: > http://www.alexwg.org/publications/PhysRevLett_110-168702.pdf > > Are these concepts so foreign that you hope to watch a thread thrash on > the semantics and meanings of this theoretical worldview? Is there > something in Hewitt's paper that strikes you as ridiculous, hogwosh or > complexity babble? > > The ideas in the paper restate what is obvious to many of > the practitioners on this list. Namely that structure formation and origin > of life may well be best understood as nature's response to imposed > non-equilibrium gradients. To many this is a core idea of Complexity. This > mechanism has been linked as a causal mechanism for the emergence of > autonomous intelligent emergent behavior since (1980, Kugler, Kelso and > Turvey <http://web.haskins.yale.edu/Reprints/HL0297.pdf>), (2000 > Kauffman<http://www.amazon.com/Investigations-Stuart-A-Kauffman/dp/0195121058/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1366685204&sr=8-2&keywords=investigations>), > (2005 Jun and Hubler <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC545530/>and > 2011 Hubler > et > al<http://icmt.illinois.edu/workshops/fluctuations2011/Talks/Hubler_Alfred_ICMT_May_2011.pdf>) > and (2007 Morowitz and > Smith<http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cplx.20191/abstract>) > among others. > > I haven't actually seen the software "entropica" referenced in the paper > and the claims may be a little over stated but the core ideas you quote > "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and > "forces" are not new and strike me as matter of fact. > > These same ideas have thrashed on the list almost exactly 10 years ago: > > http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.region.new-mexico.santa-fe.friam/256 > > Doug, where do you think intelligent behavior (ie life) comes from? Do you > have a view? a pet theory? too busy? > > --- -. . ..-. .. ... .... - .-- --- ..-. .. ... .... > stephen.gue...@redfish.com > 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 > office: (505) 995-0206 tollfree: (888) 414-3855 > mobile: (505) 577-5828 fax: (505) 819-5952 > tw: @redfishgroup skype: redfishgroup gvoice: (505) 216-6226 > redfish.com | simtable.com > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <d...@parrot-farm.net>wrote: > >> >> http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html >> >> It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that >> are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", >> "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces". >> >> --Doug >> >> -- >> *Doug Roberts >> d...@parrot-farm.net* >> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> >> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> >> 505-455-7333 - Office >> 505-672-8213 - Mobile* >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > -- *Doug Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net* *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> * <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> 505-455-7333 - Office 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
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