Glen -
I *knew* I could trust you to respond in this manner ;) .
I will restate my implied claim that trust based on empathy is
qualitatively different than other types of trust. Empathetic trust
broken is betrayal, other types of trust broken is just "bad
judgement" or "bad luck"?
Now that you introduced the extra layer of circularity, I completely
disagree that empathic trust is qualitatively different from (the 3)
other forms.
I'm not sure that I concede that empathic trust is "circular" or even
"reflexive" in the sense you imply. I don't (always) trust people
because they trust me, nor do I expect them to trust me simply because I
express my trust in them (trust me on this one).
If I can take them each in turn:
very well.
Trust Type 1) distance from a Truth -
...
If the latter, then this is also a second-order measure of trust,
complete with the same sort of circularity you get from empathic trust.
Given that you and I agree that the nature of Religious *and* Scientific
Truth is that they are not the kind of fully objective Idealized Truth
they often purport to achieve (in the former) or approach (in the
latter), I concede that this form of "trust" is based on circular
arguments. But I contend that this is not the same as empathetic
trust. Empathetic trust is not about Truth, but about Belief. When I
have empathetic trust with someone, I trust that I understand what they
believe, not how close they are to an imagined (or declared?) absolute
Truth.
TT 2) stability/predictability of an actor's behavior -
That means we need a 3rd system to help us estimate the bounds of our
estimate. And, *poof*, we now have 2nd order circularity.
Once again, my use of the term Empathic Trust is trust in someone's
beliefs, not necessarily in their actions. Actions arise from a
combination of beliefs and context.
TT 3) trust that no matter where we end up, it'll be
interesting/useful - This one might be more subtle, or more obvious,
depending on where you start.
So, there... Pfffft. 8^) Empathic trust is not qualitatively
different from the other 3, at least not because of this 2nd order
circularity. If you continue to assert it's qualitative uniqueness,
then you have to give me a property other than 2nd order circularity.
Yes, you have demonstrated that other forms/sources of trust include
circularity. The "qualitative" difference is in *what* is being
circularized. In empathic trust, I trust because I *believe* that I
understand the world view of the other, often because I *share* large
parts of it (to the best of my ability to know the other's world view,
always limited).
E.g. I used to think Renee's reorganizing my stuff was a sign of
affection. Now I think it's a passive-aggressive way of punishing me
for not swapping out the white electrical outlets for black ones
before our recent party. I hate the reorganizing, regardless, but the
meaning of it has (seems to have) changed.
I claim this supports my case: Your *belief* that Renee was exhibiting
affection for you when she reorganized your stuff *allowed* you an
empathic trust (by my definition) with her because you know (for
yourself) what affection for another feels like, and you "trust" it as a
motivation, etc.. Coming to another conclusion (regarding black vs
white electrical outlets... btw... did you consider a cardboard mask and
a can of black spray paint? And would the aerosol cause an arc and
explosion if you didn't flip your breakers first?) about passive
aggressive punishment for your refusal is another empathic response
(assuming you have any of your own passive aggressive punishing
tendencies that you recognize at least intuitively) even if in the
negative sense?
In my experience (I choose Cat Stevens-esque hard headed women myself)
such behaviour can be both passive aggressive punishment *and* a sign of
affection. Perhaps this is the kind of rationalization required of
those of us who chose hard-headed partners... we have to see the
punishments that come our way as signs of affection (as well?).
You sound like great fun at a party.
- Steve
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