Steve Smith wrote at 08/20/2013 10:13 AM:
Empathetic trust is not about Truth, but about Belief. When I have empathetic trust with someone, I trust that I understand what they believe, not how close they are to an imagined (or declared?) absolute Truth. [...] Once again, my use of the term Empathic Trust is trust in someone's beliefs, not necessarily in their actions. Actions arise from a combination of beliefs and context.
Well, I'll take a minor detour and claim that beliefs _are_ actions. I might concede that beliefs are very finely grained actions and what we normally call "actions", like drinking a glass of water, are coarse in comparison. And in that sense, I would agree that coarse actions arise from fine actions. But, also in that context, I'd argue there is no magic threshold between fine and coarse actions resulting in a qualitative difference between a belief and an "action" ... or TT[1235] versus TT4.
Yes, you have demonstrated that other forms/sources of trust include circularity. The "qualitative" difference is in *what* is being circularized. In empathic trust, I trust because I *believe* that I understand the world view of the other, often because I *share* large parts of it (to the best of my ability to know the other's world view, always limited).
I think this results nicely in (my interpretation of) Marcus' left vs. right brain distinction. If empathic trust is systemic (incorporating lots of different channels and signals), whereas other forms of trust can be more singular, more linear, then it makes a lot of sense. It also folds quite nicely into the idea that beliefs are simply fine-grained actions. With finely grained actions, the context can matter more. Lots of various, subtle, small inputs can accrete into a coarse grained action, including a feeling. I think I'm coming around to agree with you that empathic trust might be qualitatively different... the question is whether I'm still talking nonsense or not. 8^)
I claim this supports my case: Your *belief* that Renee was exhibiting affection for you when she reorganized your stuff *allowed* you an empathic trust (by my definition) with her because you know (for yourself) what affection for another feels like, and you "trust" it as a motivation, etc.. Coming to another conclusion (regarding black vs white electrical outlets... btw... did you consider a cardboard mask and a can of black spray paint? And would the aerosol cause an arc and explosion if you didn't flip your breakers first?) about passive aggressive punishment for your refusal is another empathic response (assuming you have any of your own passive aggressive punishing tendencies that you recognize at least intuitively) even if in the negative sense?
Yes, my example was offered in crypto-agreement. Machismo forbids me from outright agreeing. I have to disguise it. Re: spray-painting... that would be even more effort than simply replacing them! Plus, we have an old house whose outlets are not grounded. So, they (properly) only have the ac/dc slots, no ground. No maintenance man we've asked will replace them with 3 prong plugs, without also grounding them. So, I have to do it. If the house burns down, Renee' probably won't sue me. (She owns the house... I just pay rent.)
You sound like great fun at a party.
Heh, that probably depends on what you mean by "fun". I do know that I have a short fuse. There's only so much small talk I can handle ... after which I have to make a drastic intervention and take it somewhere interesting. (I mean really, how many times can we say the same nothing? This is what convinces me that language is a placeholder for grooming. It's also probably why I went bald at age 19.) I usually cross the threshold about 2 hours into a party ... sooner or later depending on the psychoactive chemicals involved. -- ⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella I got an itch in my cosmic pocket and it won't go away,
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