Glen -- I thought you were arguing exactly the opposite, that emotional behavior, however irrational it might appear, should be judged rational if it had some selective benefit at some point in its historical development. Like thus:
people actually use irrational reasoning procedures. I think even so-called "irrational" things like _emotions_ are, somewhere deep down, rational. Those emotions are an evolutionarily selected decision-making ability that has its own calculus. But now you're saying that irrationality is just irrational, no matter what justification one can think up for it. Meanwhile, we've reached the curious situation where we have human actors making irrational arguments which attempt to disguise themselves as rational thought. That is, they don't say: "I'm going to do this because I'm batshit crazy"; they say: "I'm going to do this because of <fallacious logic> and <more fallacious logic> and <non-existent evidence>." We're actually quite rational by habit, we regulate most of our lives according to logic and evidence, we make most decisions rationally. It's only a few subjects that drive us batshit, but we still justify the batshit as if it were the result of a rational decision. -- rec -- On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 1:53 PM, glen <g...@ropella.name> wrote: > > OK. But what you're proposing here is that "rational" is a dependent > measure. One can measure the rationality of the actor based on > different things, e.g. their beliefs, empirical evidence, status quo, etc. > > I don't really buy that at all. A person who commits either of the 2 > errors you mention: 1) argument from authority or 2) judgment of the > conclusion absent the reasoning process by which it was derived, doesn't > have a rational basis at all. Perhaps they have good cause to reject > (any) reasoning or any empirical evidence. And that cause is some > non-rational (genetic determinism?) mechanism that objectively benefits > them (e.g. white men supporting social structures that benefit white > men). But that doesn't make it _rational_. It's not a rational thing > to behave irrationally. It might be a beneficial thing, but not a > rational thing. > > The people who are behaving absent rationality are not rationally > irrational. They are simply irrational (which as Steve points out, may > not be a bad thing). > > But I suppose the extent to which behavior can be dependent on > thought/reason, we might be able to say that those who think about what > they will do before they do it are more rational than those who do not. > If all thought is just a rationalization, then none of us _ever_ behave > rationally. > > > On 01/07/2014 11:06 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote: > > There are two things reading Altemeyer would clear up. > > > > 1) He calls them Right Wing Authoritarians not because they're > > necessarily right wingers politically, but because they're invested in > > maintaining the status quo in their world. He believes the rank and > > file Stalinists were probably as authoritarian as the rank and file > > National Socialists. It's one of the many ways that Altemeyer > > undermines his own claims with carelessness. > > > > 2) When he says "their reasoning is sloppy", he means: they will accept > > fallacious logical arguments if they like the conclusion; they will > > reject sound logical arguments if they dislike the conclusion; they will > > invent empirical evidence if their arguments require it; and they will > > deny empirical evidence that contradicts their beliefs, even if it > > happens right in front of their noses. > > > > And when I say that this kind of behavior is irrational, I mean that it > > defies all standards of rationality. But that doesn't mean that it > > doesn't have a rational basis -- if your beliefs are more important than > > behaving rationally, then it is rational to be as irrational as is > > necessary to destroy the opposition. If your beliefs are more important > > than objective reality, then denying objective reality is a rational > > thing for you to do. But don't expect me to describe your irrationality > > as rationality, just because you have a reason to behave batshit crazy > > doesn't make batshit crazy any less crazy. > > -- > =><= glen > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >
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