Much joy and merriment to you and yours on your vacation.
On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Russ Abbott <russ.abb...@gmail.com> wrote: > I think the weather example rests on the likelihood that we could have > complex weather without biology. > > On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:26 PM Steve <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > >> And I agree completely with the idea of zooming in (enough) to be at >> least hunting subSnarks on a domain composed almost entirely of Snarks... >> ((Or Snarkbait?) >> >> Beating the dead snark, I was mildly perturbed by the implication that >> the complexity of weather systems was more than incidentally dependent on >> the biological systems that might infiorm them (transpiration from forest >> or savannah, light absorption by algae, methane from cattle and termites, >> etc) >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On May 25, 2017, at 1:39 PM, glen ☣ <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> > I agree completely. But if we look carefully at Russ' question: >> > >> >> On 05/24/2017 11:00 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: >> >> Can we think of anything that is non-biological, non-human, and not a >> biological or human artifact that would qualify as an agent based system? >> > >> > And we consider the previous comments about biology creeping into >> (even!) weather patterns and climate, and whether complexity is invariant >> through the reduction to physics ... and we can even extend that to >> something like Smolin's fecund universe, etc ad forever, it becomes clear >> that we're hunting the snark. And I suppose the wisdom of traditions like >> Buddhism and such, as well as the falsification/selection approach of >> critical rationalism, _strongly_ suggest to us what Harley Davidson tells >> us on a regular basis: The journey is the destination. >> > >> > So, rather than talk about the elusive snark, why not talk explicitly >> about the journey ... the workflow, the tools, the thing(s) right in front >> of our face/hands? E.g. topological insulators don't look at all plectic >> to me. So, I'd be very interested to hear why y'all think they are. (By >> using "plectic", I'm admitting that I don't understand quantum physics; so >> sure, they're mysterious... but how are they complex in the way we're using >> the term, here?) >> > >> > But I'm more interested in well-defined concepts of agents than I im in >> well-defined concepts of complex systems. So, what type of agents are we >> talking about? Kauffman's "thermodynamic agents"? Zero intelligence >> agents? BDI-capable agents? Etc. These concrete details would put us >> squarely inside the journey and outside the destination. >> > >> > >> >> On 05/25/2017 12:21 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: >> >> MY point (at least, not trying to speak for others) was/is that >> "interesting", "life", and "complexity" might very well be highly >> superposed or even "conjugated" (to introduce an extremely overloaded >> technical term). >> >> >> >> I suppose to disambiguate, I believe that "Life" is a subset of >> "Complex Systems" and life in the larger sense of ALife is a larger subset >> of complex systems, though probably still a *proper* subset? The outer >> bounds of he vagueness of "Life" convolved with the inner bounds of >> vagueness of Complex Systems might allow them to become identical? The >> question of "Interesting" seems to be sharpened (or is it dulled?) by the >> subjectivity of the term... I suppose "interesting" is usually defined by >> being simultaneously "familiar enough to be relevant" and "unfamiliar >> enough to be novel". Since we are LIfe ourselves, it seems likely that we >> find *life itself* at least relevant and as we expand the definition of >> Life it becomes more novel and interesting, up to embracing all of >> "complexity"... to the extent that the Alife movement expanded the >> consideration from biological life to proto-life and quasi-life, I'm >> tempted to claim that *they* would include *all* of complex systems... >> >> admitting that the specific boundaries of all the above *are* vague. >> >> >> >> To re-iterate, I think there IS good evidence to consider "complex >> systems" and "life" as highly related and it seems obvious that they would >> be "interesting", though I suppose there should be things outside of that >> domain which are also obviously "interesting". Agency is another hairball >> to sort through and I won't attempt much except that in MY definition of >> Life, "Agency" is one of the qualities of proto-life. To that extent, it >> would seem that complex systems composed *of* entities with agency are as >> likely as any "biological system" to exhibit complexity, etc. >> >> >> >> As for "Russ clarifying his question", I think this can be a >> rhetorical device? It has always seemed to me that Science really >> degenerates to "asking the right question" where when properly formulated, >> the "answer becomes obvious"... in some sense, I think THIS is what passes >> for elegance, the holy grail of scientific theory? >> > >> > >> > -- >> > ☣ glen >> > ============================================================ >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >> > >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove