Glen, Hum Bah Bug,
In the first instance, to a pragmatist, any statement that X is Thus, is incomplete. So that statement, X is hierarchically organized, is just an incomplete statement. So an argument about whether anything IS JUST hierarchically organized is a silly argument. What is not a silly argument is that X is hierarchically organized for some purpose of from point of view, P. So all attributions are three0valued, sign, object, interpretant. Is this relativism? No, not in the ordinary sense. Because the pragmatist asserts that if you stand next to me, you will see what I see. Or, to put it less metaphorically, if you do the experiment you will get the result. So, if you take Eric or I to be saying that anything is one hundred present hierarchically organized all the time and in all respects, you take us wrong. But I love you like a brother Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2019 4:47 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction Unfortunately, that is the sense in which I thought you were using the term. Have I been strawmanned? 8^) The packaging of a scalar vs the packaging of a matrix are "levels of analysis", if there ever was such a thing. 8^) To use Eric(C)'s words the organization of a set of numbers into a matrix isn't in the scalars of which it's composed. My example was that higher-organized things like feeling hungry mix directly with lower-organized things like eyeball jittering. The organization of the low level stuff (e.g. tissues) isn't hygenically separated from the organization of the chemicals into a cell. I.e. tissue isn't strictly made up of cells, and cells aren't strictly made up of complex molecules, etc. Tissue is a cross-level operator. Tissue is made of molecules as well as cells (as well as other mixed-level things like lumens). Hence, it's a fiction (oversimplification) to say that tissue is an organization of cells. Your hierarchy is fictitious (though perhaps useful for an entry into some subject matter). On January 5, 2019 2:49:16 PM PST, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > >But you are exactly right that that is the sense in which I wanted to >use the term. > > > > > >From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Eric >Charles >Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2019 3:05 PM >To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group ><friam@redfish.com> >Subject: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction > > > >Glen said: " I would claim motives are a higher order behavior, but NOT >(solely) at a higher level of organization. I.e. motives consist of >BOTH low level behaviors like eyeball saccades AND high level behaviors >like how one feels about another person." And then a bit later Glen >complained (rightly) that no one had followed up on his examples. I >will attempt to fill that gap! > > > >I suspect the first issue is here is what we call "higher level." >Sometimes, when people reference "higher level behavior", they are >envisioning something like a "ladder of life" with simpler beings lower >down and more complex beings higher up. In that context, something like >a saccade is low on the scale, because many "lower beings" do it, and >throwing a baseball might be higher on the scale, because only a few >non-human species are capable of such a thing. Based on how the above >quote is phrased, I believe that is what Glen very-understandably >thinks Nick is be talking about. However, Nick is invoking something >else entirely, something like "levels of analysis" talk, in which >meaningful "higher" things exist in the relations between lower-level >things. > > > >The most common context in which people are exposed to this is in >biology class, where we are told that at some level there are cells, >and that many cells of similar type make tissue, tissue combines into >organs, organs into organ systems, and systems into organisms. In some >obvious sense, cells "make up" organs, but also one would not really >come to understand organs by virtue of individually examining cells. >There is something "higher-level" going on, something about the >organization of the cells that we consider important, and worth talking >about and studying in its own right, which is why organ-talk and >organ-level science are things. > > > >When Nick says that " Motives ARE behavior. Just at a higher level of >organization.", he means "higher level" in that sense. We see that >someone is motivated towards a certain goal when we witness them >varying their behavior across circumstances in order to achieve that >goal. If we want to measure how motivated someone is, we change the >circumstances so that they are no longer directed at (what we assume to >be) their goal, and then measure the strength of their effort to >"return to course." That line of thought can be elaborated extensively, >with other examples brought in from both scientific efforts and mundane >life, and what you end up with is the conclusion that: Motives are an >identifiable type of pattern that can exist between behavior and >circumstances, specifically a pattern in which behavior changes such >that the acts in question continue to be directed towards producing a >particular outcome. -- glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
