It may be Bob but he spent most of his career at Sandia and before that at UNM CS.
Ed __________ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon Santa Fe, NM 87501 505-984-0136 (home) edward.an...@gmail.com 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel > On Dec 26, 2019, at 5:27 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Bob Ballance!! > > ----------------------------------- > Frank Wimberly > > My memoir: > https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly > <https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly> > > My scientific publications: > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 > <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2> > > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:40 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com > <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote: > Also, there was a guy who had also worked at Bell Labs, for a lot longer than > I did, who used to come to Friam. Then he got some kind of honorary position > in DC left town temporarily. He had thinning white hair and wore glasses and > was about my height. With that unique description someone must know who I'm > talking about. His name is on the tip of my tongue. > > Frank > > ----------------------------------- > Frank Wimberly > > My memoir: > https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly > <https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly> > > My scientific publications: > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 > <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2> > > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:06 PM <thompnicks...@gmail.com > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote: > Our Own Lee Rudolph, was there as well. In the belly of Net Logo, I think. > > > > Lee???? Are you out there? > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > > Clark University > > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > > > > > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On > Behalf Of Steven A Smith > Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2019 2:56 PM > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable > > > > Frank - > > I am, it's first draft is roughly what I get when I filter my outbox. > The chapters on "memoirs of sci/tech" are in the "recipients:Friam" stream... > this collection may very well also be the primary contents of many's TL;DR > folder here. > > I would appreciate a second memoir from yourself covering the years (and > anecdotes) including running Paul Erdos out of the Berkeley Campus Library > each night and the belly of the ATT and CMU (and???) beasts... to complement > the not-too-long-after-wild-wild-west days in NM. > > My friend who is no more than a couple of years younger than you who grew > up in Las Vegas and Amarillo recognized a lot of familiar "color" from your > memoir. He got lucky and ended up at MIT in the early 60s... > > - Steve > > On 12/26/19 11:30 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > > Steve, > > > > You should write a memoir. > > > > Frank > > ----------------------------------- > Frank Wimberly > > My memoir: > https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly > <https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly> > > My scientific publications: > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 > <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2> > > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 10:42 AM Steven A Smith <sasm...@swcp.com > <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote: > > Frank - > > It is fascinating to hear that you were in the "belly of the beast" if only > for a short while. I suppose we have all been in the belly of *some* beast > in our various times. > > My earliest years were without a telephone in the house (camp-trailer in the > woods) followed by several party lines (shared in 2 cases amongst other USFS > families in forest-camp compounds) and understanding that the magical rings > and voices coming from the handsets in the house were modulated (whatever > that meant to a 3 year old) over the insulated bundles of wires running from > tree-to-tree and pole-to-pole... It wasn't hard to understand the idea that > if voices could travel over single wires, that any one of us on a party line > could pick up and hear the other's voices during a conversation or even that > the volume/static on the line would abruptly change if someone picked up (say > to listen in?). It made perfect sense that such resources (wires on poles) > were very scarce and needed to be shared... I had heard of > operator-assisted calling which made great sense (patch panels) but the idea > that the pulses sent via the spring-loaded rotary dial could "tell" a > electromechanical switch (my father showed me the one in the main location at > the second forest camp when I was about 5) and I remember watching/hearing a > call go through it... relays opening and closing as ring pulses went > through... > > One of my friend's father was the local telephone lineman and he was busy all > the time either going out on trouble calls or doing maintenance on the > switches. Realizing that in a community of roughly 300 (600 in the county at > the time!) was keeping one man busy (more than) full time doing this was my > first taste of "infrastructure". I don't know what kind of backup he had... > I never saw anyone else working with him nor heard of anyone else employed... > though I do know sometimes there were company trucks parked at the fenced > yard next to his house... probably for new line buildout? Another father of > a friend owned/operated the local "vending" routes which included soda > machines, candy machines and best of all pinball machines. HIs territory > must have been pretty wide because our 300 town only had one soda/candy > machine at each of 2 gasoline stations and 3 pinball machines at the > drug/variety store. I got to see the ones in their shop behind the house > under repair opened up and really got a kick out of trying to "trace the > logic" of a coin-drop/lever-pull, delivery-chute... and even better, the > complex logic of a pinball machine. Yet another father drove the propane > delivery truck (he had a boss who drove some, but he was the main driver) and > another who ran the local branch of the power - coop along with his wife. > They had more trucks that came in from the next large town (60 miles and > maybe 1000 people?) to do major repairs/upgrades, but he was out in his truck > all the time fixing/installing *something*. Several of these men ran an > ad-hoc cable network in the core of the village... nothing came in by > antenna and I guess they had their own up on a mountain with a rebroadcast > system... the network was down as much as it was up and while *some* of the > customers had to have been paying customers, it was these guys who somewho > cooperatively kept it going. I *knew* that someone besides these men were > *designing* and *building* the systems they maintained (thought the cable TV > thing was more DIY). > > Many years later, we moved to a large town/small-city (2 supermarkets, a > dozen motels and gas stations?) and our neighbors at the edge of town owned > the local AM radio station... they solicited me to clean the station every > Saturday and after a few months of that I graduated to typing up station > program logs and then began to operate the station under supervision... they > were largely "automated" which meant 4 big carousels with 4-track endless > loop (similar to 8-track) cartidges that we would load with music, PSAs and > commercials which were then "programmed" by inserting pins in different > patch-panels... there were two modes... for example, the system that took > over on the top of hour for the network news would inject one of a small > handful of instrumental tunes that could be faded/interrupted at-will to flip > over the newsfeed. The rest of the time, the system had a priority stack > and the commercial/PSAs stack had priority in the sense that it wanted to > play out it's queue within the allotted time (usually one hour) no matter > what... while the music queue would simply play whenever one of the others > were not... only rarely (due to bad planning) would a commercial or PSA go > unplayed. Not every hour was different, but there were periods (8-12AM, > 1-5PM, 6-10PM) that had a particular character and there was some variation > within it. By the time I was 15 (Freshman in HS) the station owners saw my > diligence and curiosity (the Station Engineer would take the time to explain > most everything there to me in as much detail as I had time for) and offered > me a nighttime live show which I ran for most of my HS years. I always had > the option to fire up the automated system, as I was also trying to do my > homework during that time. I went in to the station before 4PM to handle > the 4-6 news programs (I can still hear Paul Harvey ringing in my ears) and > then the (automated) 6-7 PM "sundown serenade" curated by the wife but > executed by me (most of the time). At 7 we rolled into "the Night Show" > which was conceived by the owners to be something for the "youth crowd". It > was nominally a Rock show but was really Top-40 by their measure... We had > the full array of classic rock vinyl in the shelves and I was allowed to use > (most of) it but there was the top-40 billboard charts to be serviced which > meant a lot of pop-rock and country-rock and pop-pop. > > Yet another exposure to the complexities of "programming" and "logic" from a > somewhat different perspective. The engineer at the time had been on the > predecessor to the NIF fusion project in Livermore (MFE?) (designing/building > the capacitor banks) and clued me in a lot of things. He was a > greasy-haired wiry little hippy that drove an old italian convertible (very > finicky with dual carbs...) and had a penchant for visiting the bars/brothels > in Mexico (this was a border town) and probably got rolled by someone at > least once a year... and had the stories (and scuffs) to tell about it. He > taught me binary logic/arithmetic and showed me how that related to the > somewhat similar/different discrete/analog systems behind the carousels (all > the electronics were exposed, so you could trace wires and watch relays > open/close) and even taught me the basics of analog circuits including > soldering, relays, power amplifiers/transmitters. Later, as I went into the > all-digital world of Computer Science, It was as if I was learning about > Mammals after growing up among only Marsupials. Of course automobiles had > their own share of analog-discrete logic with an HV (timed) side and a 12V > mostly continuous (but with switches/relays) side. This was the 70s and the > autos of interest were mostly from the 50s/60s. > > I went to LANL in 1981 to work on the Proton Storage Ring which was in some > ways the epitome of an anolog/digital hybrid systems with huge subsystems > being HV and HF while others were "utility" (110/60) and yet others were TTL. > The place was "in flux" all the time... with magnetic fields (intended and > unintended) coming and going effecting everything. It was a quite the > milieu. Moving to HPC was both a relief and a whole new world... even > though I still worked with some analog systems, they were much less dangerous > and much less high speed... the digital stuff was lickety-split (by those > days standards) and the introduction of vector and parallel (and eventually > distributed) processing was new and interesting. By the time I was > mentoring others (90s), the backgrounds were almost exclusively digital and > most if not all of the "kids" that came through had never even worked on > their own cars, much less vending machine or automated tape carousel logic. > > As Y2K approached, a consultant from SAIC was working in my general area... > we became friends... but his role and way of thinking was incredibly foreign > to me. One of his roles (he felt like a plant from the military-industrial > into the military-scientific establishment) was to consult on Y2K readiness. > My system at the time had been hand-built on top of UNIX (replacing a VMS > system that was falling apart every day) by a small team (3-5 of us) and > while I did not know every line of code in the system (I had written a good > portion of it), we had coding practices and standards and code-reviews and I > was roughly 99.9% confident that we didn't have a single 2-digit date in the > system, nor did we depend on any libraries or system code which did. The > open-source/community nature of BSD Unix meant that everything we relied on > and trusted without inspecting personally had been inspected by hundreds or > thousands of others. The Y2K problem had been discussed a lot and there > were plenty of procedures in place to encourage (though never ensure) that > every code-team/system had expunged any possible Y2K bugs. My SAIC buddy > talked in SLOC and had metrics up the wazoo about things which almost > exclusively did not apply (well) to our systems as-designed and as-built. > There may well have been (especially in the Business Processing side of the > house) some big risk/holes, but I knew my system intimately and the other > major/similar systems (slightly larger development teams with more turnover) > were well in hand. > > We (the three major systems) also had on-call responsibility and were used to > being called at 3AM if something wasn't right.... *we* had been trained by > the operations staff to not leave them hanging... they could be pretty > easy-going/helpful with those of us who answered our phones and were > easy-going/helpful with them, but the few who thought they shouldn't have to > help stand up a system they built when it fell over (or sprung a leak) at 3AM > on a holiday discovered quickly that they would not be let off easier just > because they were reluctant or pissy about the call. Bottom line was that > we (developers) knew that our systems had to run 24/7/365 and the 00:00:01 > 01/01/00 was just like any other day, and if/when/as the dominoes might start > to fall, it was OUR job to be right there standing back up any of OUR > dominoes that might fall on their own or be knocked down by others. There > was a little rivalry between systems (operations as well as development) but > for the most part of someone else's system was falling down and making a > mess (creating possible/implied bugs in other systems) we all pulled together > pretty well. I don't know to this day if my SAIC friend understood how > coordinated and intimate we all were, because he kept on predicting gloom and > doom for us as the date approached. As it was, there wasn't even much > scurry as the calendar/clocks cranked over Y2K, and I don't remember any > acute problems. We (wanted to?) believed that the ADP side of the house had > no end of problems due to their heavy dependence on commercial > systems/layers/middle-ware/vendors. As I remember it, Y2K was pretty much a > flop everywhere. > > All this in response to "IT is Not Sustainable". I would claim that > virtually NOTHING we build is sustainable... or at least there is a huge > spectrum. Engineering can be incredibly robust within it's design > parameters, but is often incredibly fragile when confronted with a unexpected > conditions... Evolved systems are also simultaneously fragile and robust. > They are robust within the "basins of attraction" implied by the ecosystem > they operate within but once pushed out of those robust regions they can > self-destruct quickly... I've been studying (very loosely) the myriad > examples of species extinction and habitat loss and cascading failures (in > progress and/or impending) in our ecosystems and am appalled at how > unprepared we (humans, engineers, even scientists) are to apprehend the > fragile interconnectedness and "designed for near-optimal-conditions" we have > set up. Not precisely a house of cards, a line of dominos, a stack of Jenga > sticks, but not precisely NOT those either. > > My recent trip to Europe/Scandinavia opened my eyes to some things I was > previously under-aware of. The evolved-engineered systems of polder and > canal and dike and hydrology in the Netherlands is perhaps the most > impressive. Realizing that they started significantly holding back the > north sea during the "little ice age" (dikes and polders had started earlier, > but this was when they really came into their own?) helps me to appreciate > the difference between what they have done there over centuries vs what our > own Army Corps has done in less than 100... and most to the point, the ways > a whole culture can adapt to things including their own engineering given > many generations, but how we "moderns" don't have time to adapt culturally to > the changes. We DO adapt (the talk of telephones and the earliest examples > leading up to a global wireless, multi-system-technology mesh/grid being an > example), but it isn't clear to me that our adaptation is *deep* enough to be > robust... > > Another example in less detail is what has been come to be called "the Nordic > Secret" which is roughly the response of Scandinavia to the enlightenment > followed by the industrial revolution and perhaps most acutely the post WWII > industrial/cultural explosion in the west. In many ways they follow the > rest of the West, but it seems they may actually know "a secret" about > sustainability, both industrially and culturally. > > The "Endogenous Existential Threats" of our time are many/myriad and to the > point... Endogenous... self-generatated... and while we may be taking down > a lot of the biosphere-as-we-know it with us, the biggest tragedy seems to be > set to land ON us, and those closest to us (our domisticates and the > remaining large mammal species)... though that also may simply be an > anthropocentric view. > > As Dave's title says "IT" is not sustainable... you name the "it" and it > very likely has a lamer lifetime than you imagine (my Y2K anecdote > notwithstanding)... > > I WILL say that despite my neo-Luddite rants, I've become more of an > Eco-Modernist of late... not necessarily wanting to trust that we can > "technology" our way out of the disasters we are creating with our > technology, but recognizing that perhaps we have little other choice > (culturally)... and that we must *try* to walk the tightrope of using "fire > to fight fire" but with (perhaps) a lot more self-awareness than that which > we used to paint ourselves into this (mixed metaphor of a) corner. > > </ramble> > > - Steve > > > > On 12/26/19 9:08 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > > > > "CenturyLink (NYSE: CTL) has set a goal to reduce power consumption on its > public switched telephone network by nearly 22,000 megawatt-hours a year, > reducing greenhouse gas emissions as more customers migrate to VoIP and > mobile voice services. > > Although CenturyLink is growing its IP-based voice service, this project is > focused on consolidating more than 400,000 legacy PSTN subscriber lines > across 50 Class 5 voice switches. " > > > > They're called class 5 because of 5ESS which is the most used class 5 switch > at CenturyLink. > > Sorry, but I had to clarify this. > > > > Frsnk > > ----------------------------------- > Frank Wimberly > > My memoir: > https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly > <https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly> > > My scientific publications: > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 > <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2> > > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:43 AM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com > <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ESS used in > a mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System is a Class 5 telephone > electronic switching system developed by ... > > ----------------------------------- > Frank Wimberly > > My memoir: > https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly > <https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly> > > My scientific publications: > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 > <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2> > > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: > > Frank writes: > > > > “This was the telephone network in question.“ > > > > With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is still > used? I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do billing > for long distance telephone carriers. I was amazed by the seemingly > arbitrary complexity. Complex at a policy and inter-organizational level, > not just the software. > > > > Marcus > > > > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on > behalf of Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> > Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Date: Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable > > > > At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC. We also had code reviews and > software tools to enforce standards and very high pay. With a brand new PhD > I made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS faculty at Pitt > where I was a grad student. This was the telephone network in question. > > > > Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology. The > disagreements between the software tool developers (version control, > integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the > applications, such as call processing, were epic. Recall that Bell Labs > invented C and Unix. After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at > Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary. > > > > Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work began. I > suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but close to it. > Maybe Dave doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the software tools > that were developed were included in later Unix releases, I believe. > > > > It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe. > > > > Frank > > > > > > ----------------------------------- > Frank Wimberly > > My memoir: > https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly > <https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly> > > My scientific publications: > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 > <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2> > > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz <g...@naturesvisualarts.com > <mailto:g...@naturesvisualarts.com>> wrote: > > Spot on. > > > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: > > Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by > other people. The problem is that people are selfish. They think that > their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once that > too. It's the behavior of teenagers. > > On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" > <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of > li...@hpcoders.com.au <mailto:li...@hpcoders.com.au>> wrote: > > It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on > some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex > than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much more > nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code easier > and bugs less troublesome to winkle out. > > I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by a > factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) - > but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that > section. > > Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a > programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments. > > -- > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Senior Research Fellow hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > <mailto:hpco...@hpcoders.com.au> > Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au > <http://www.hpcoders.com.au/> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> by Dr. > Strangelove > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> by Dr. Strangelove > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
