Nick, for the record, and this will not change from my end: Your right to be interested in whatever you are interested in is sacrosanct, here or in any other forum. I don’t think there are thread boundaries on that, though there are all the normal courtesies which I see more clearly for a while after I transgress one.
Eric > On May 30, 2020, at 1:03 PM, <thompnicks...@gmail.com> > <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > > All – > > I feel norm formation going on here, and it is making me a bit nervous. I am > not sure what follows from that, but there it is. I thing that we at FriAM > have long worked the boundary between work and play. I think that’s where > the best work is done. > > But this is my thread, right? Can a man bust his own thread? I d o n t t > h I n k s o. I want to talk about metaphor. And it’s relation to models. > And it’ relation to the concept of intentionality. The question is, To what > extent do our norms allow me to bring those concerns to other threads. And > the answer I am hearing from many of you is, “Less than I have been”. > > Well, I will do my best. But, for instance, I think the “work” we did on > “strawman” was tremendously important. In my introductory graduate lectures > at Berkeley, where, one by one, the the grey-backed gorillas of the > department laid down the law. Somebody, I think David Krech, announced that > if “I say that the number of rat turds left by a rat in an open field maze is > “anxiety”, then that is what anxiety IS for the purposes of my research, and > there’s no more discussion to be had.” And even in the tenuous position of a > first year graduate student I knew that was wrong. Meanings have momentum. > Words have meaning that is independent of their users. I have fought for 50 > years to rescue ‘teleonomy’ (=natural design) from the dualistic thieves that > abducted it. And SteveG and I could be thought of as battling for nigh a > decade and half about which specification of the metaphor of natural > selection is best for the purposes of understanding natural design. (I > thought we made a lot of progress on that issue today.) Much of what we do > in scientific discourse is fight over metaphors and we need to develop > methods for fighting fairly, skillfully, and expeditiously. > > I don’t think I have EVER introduced the idea of metaphor in a conversation > where I didn’t think a clarification or specification of the metaphors > implicit in our conversation might move the discussion forward. I may be > playing with words but I am not just playing with words. God knows, I may > have been WRONG in many cases, but I absolutely defend the idea that > attention to the metaphors at play in a conversation is often essential to > any development of understanding or convergence of opinion. > > Is it always? No. Of course not. And I will try to be more careful about > that. > > Thanks, as always, for all your thoughts. My life would not be half of what > it is without them. Really. It’s perhaps pathetic for me to admit that, > but it’s true. > > Nick > > > > Nicholas Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > Clark University > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > > > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On > Behalf Of David Eric Smith > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 9:11 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Metaphor [POSSIBLE DISTRACTON FROM]: privacy games > > Hi Jon, > > No, actually not any issue with any of what you had posted, as also just > affirmation toward various historical posts by Glen. > > Yes, sorry about a thread-rudeness. I had sort of dropped a chunk of > something that had been accumulating for a week in the middle of your thread > which was in the coarse of solving other problems, where it didn’t belong. > Partly this was because yours had been the latest snapshot, partly it was > because the overall frame you and Glen and Steve are building is one that I > would like to think of my own additions as finding a place in, and partly I > was probably using the measured tone of this sub-thread as cover, since my > own was rather crabby and aggressive. Strange that it seemed formally > impolite to me, to use your thread as a point of departure and not direct the > salutation to you, while I blew past the fact that it was substantively rude > to use the thread, rather than to participate in it. > > Very good. Thanks for calling me on this, > > > Eric > > > > >> On May 30, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Jon Zingale <jonzing...@gmail.com >> <mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Eric, >> >> I am not sure that I disagree with you anywhere, but I am >> unsure whether you are taking issue with me? The proliferation >> of threads are sometimes hard for me to follow, inevitably I mis- >> determine who is talking to whom. Are there places in my writing >> that you would suggest I revisit and reconsider? Pointing things >> out to another can be an expensive and thankless task, so thank >> you in advance. >> >> Jon >> -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... >> ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > > -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... > ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/>
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