That’s very useful, Eric, thank you. > On Jul 31, 2020, at 8:19 PM, Eric Charles <eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Discussions of social mobility are odd. I understand that many countries have > more than the U.S., but whenever I see actual numbers, the mobility seems > pretty reasonable on average, and we are far from a caste system. If you > scroll down here can see data from Pew data from 2015 (in the right part of > the 2nd and 3rd graph). Of those in the bottom 20% at the start, less than > half are there in adulthood, 4% have made it all the way to the top 20%. The > numbers are similar going in the opposite direction: Of those in the top 20% > at the start, less than half are there in adulthood, with 8% having dropped > all the way to the bottom 20%. > https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2016/01/12/how-much-social-mobility-do-people-really-want/ > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.brookings.edu%2fblog%2fsocial-mobility-memos%2f2016%2f01%2f12%2fhow-much-social-mobility-do-people-really-want%2f&c=E,1,wARI_Rqqmjsngze-BCXF4KQDiF733j4KuqciluS8XPutBUIXdS_fVNj1wthNnK1s-k6yHVmIh8LbT_IDtcBGQ84ea9OolTDdjXs-Zuddzjc,&typo=1> > > > As I understand actual caste systems, the number who go from the bottom rung > to the top rung in a generation should be easily roundable to 0%. > > There are definitely racial differences not captured in that data, and I have > seen some studies showing outcomes for African Americans at about half the > national averages (so we could infer that in the above data set only 2% of > Afircan Americans would make it from the bottom quintile to the top > quintile). This presentation shows the differences between races better: > https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/02/14/no-room-at-the-top-the-stark-divide-in-black-and-white-economic-mobility/ > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.brookings.edu%2fblog%2fup-front%2f2019%2f02%2f14%2fno-room-at-the-top-the-stark-divide-in-black-and-white-economic-mobility%2f&c=E,1,jgCmupDNPtblowoirtdwRknBZ-uxnjh2mXu2LQunKxCCbTmGtRZ9jGsjBpITdXYcccmbqzpMz6abD05eVhuJ1clDpPGDRMQhJzvUB-l_NckM99o,&typo=1> > It shows that white children from the bottom quintile are 45% less likely > to end up in the top quintile than would be expected at totally random > chance. In contrast, African American children from the bottom quintile are > 85% less likely to end up in the top quintile than would be expected at > totally random chance. > > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 10:50 PM David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu > <mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote: > Here I think we have to ask Ta-Nehisi Coates, and simply accept whatever he > says, making a good-faith effort to not pick nits in the sentences out of > context, but to engage with the causal picture he argues at the system level. > > One part of the argument is: Whiteness is a myth (both figuratively and in > the more analytical sense). It is fluid and opportunistic, and constantly > reconfigured to maintain and concentrate power structures. So there is no > real intrinsic to it; it is only instrumental and must be understood in that > functional way. > > The other part of it, which looks opposite if nitpicked, would be: You don’t > get to claim there is no white and therefore you have it as tough as > everybody else. There are real oppressed and real oppressors, and if you are > in the group that contains the oppressors, then you are an oppressor, whether > you want to think of yourself that way or not. The oppressed don’t get to > opt out of their group, so neither do you. So it’s not _all that_ fluid, or > at least not fluid in a way that would let you off the hook. > > There was a nice article in the NYT about two weeks ago (or three?), arguing > that the US is in important ways a caste society first and foremost, and that > race is recruited as an instrument to define and implement caste. I find the > logic of that argument both plausible in mind and viscerally appropriate in > experience. It also gets around the awkwardnesses of language in talking > about whether “whiteness” is or is not fluid, to whom and for what purposes, > because caste is a language specifically about the implementation of power, > so it is automatically functionalist. > > However, tread carefully: I hear Bernie saying what in essence is the same > thing — maybe because I know something about the historical data on social > mobility through Sam Bowles over years at SFI, and those who start trapped > also stay trapped when everybody is trapped, so mechanistically I hear that > part of Bernie’s characterization as correct — and yet a very large majority > of black voters did not think Bernie was their ally. I don’t know if they > disfavored him for the same reasons I preferred others (by quite a lot) to > him, or for completely different reasons such as hearing him as denying that > race oppression is a problem. In the small bit of his heavily repetitive > rhetoric that I heard, I never heard that, but I’m not black and I didn’t > listen to it all with fine attention, so what I did or didn’t hear doesn’t > count. > > Once the society is full of mines, it doesn’t matter where you walk, you are > going to lose a leg. So probably best to accept that everybody is in the > same boat, and be on each other’s side trying to get to something better. > > Eric > > > > > On Jul 31, 2020, at 11:29 AM, jon zingale <jonzing...@gmail.com > > <mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > Frank says: "The Republic by Plato" > > Merle says: "Clearly the implicit bias is that all of these reading > > requirements were written by White men." > > > > One point that interests me here is the determination that Plato was white. > > Perhaps he should be considered white: he likely owned slaves, he was > > educated, and likely had about as much privilege as anyone could imagine at > > the time. On the other hand, if any of his ancestors found themselves in the > > new world circa 1900 they likely would have found themselves digging the > > most profound ditches. What exactly is meant by white anyway? Is it possible > > that producing work powerful enough to influence 2500 years of white > > thinking is what makes Plato white? 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