Discussions of social mobility are odd. I understand that many countries have more than the U.S., but whenever I see actual numbers, the mobility seems pretty reasonable on average, and we are far from a caste system. If you scroll down here can see data from Pew data from 2015 (in the right part of the 2nd and 3rd graph). Of those in the bottom 20% at the start, less than half are there in adulthood, 4% have made it all the way to the top 20%. The numbers are similar going in the opposite direction: Of those in the top 20% at the start, less than half are there in adulthood, with 8% having dropped all the way to the bottom 20%. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2016/01/12/how-much-social-mobility-do-people-really-want/
As I understand actual caste systems, the number who go from the bottom rung to the top rung in a generation should be easily roundable to 0%. There are definitely racial differences not captured in that data, and I have seen some studies showing outcomes for African Americans at about half the national averages (so we could infer that in the above data set only 2% of Afircan Americans would make it from the bottom quintile to the top quintile). This presentation shows the differences between races better: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/02/14/no-room-at-the-top-the-stark-divide-in-black-and-white-economic-mobility/ It shows that white children from the bottom quintile are 45% less likely to end up in the top quintile than would be expected at totally random chance. In contrast, African American children from the bottom quintile are 85% less likely to end up in the top quintile than would be expected at totally random chance. On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 10:50 PM David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> wrote: > Here I think we have to ask Ta-Nehisi Coates, and simply accept whatever > he says, making a good-faith effort to not pick nits in the sentences out > of context, but to engage with the causal picture he argues at the system > level. > > One part of the argument is: Whiteness is a myth (both figuratively and in > the more analytical sense). It is fluid and opportunistic, and constantly > reconfigured to maintain and concentrate power structures. So there is no > real intrinsic to it; it is only instrumental and must be understood in > that functional way. > > The other part of it, which looks opposite if nitpicked, would be: You > don’t get to claim there is no white and therefore you have it as tough as > everybody else. There are real oppressed and real oppressors, and if you > are in the group that contains the oppressors, then you are an oppressor, > whether you want to think of yourself that way or not. The oppressed don’t > get to opt out of their group, so neither do you. So it’s not _all that_ > fluid, or at least not fluid in a way that would let you off the hook. > > There was a nice article in the NYT about two weeks ago (or three?), > arguing that the US is in important ways a caste society first and > foremost, and that race is recruited as an instrument to define and > implement caste. I find the logic of that argument both plausible in mind > and viscerally appropriate in experience. It also gets around the > awkwardnesses of language in talking about whether “whiteness” is or is not > fluid, to whom and for what purposes, because caste is a language > specifically about the implementation of power, so it is automatically > functionalist. > > However, tread carefully: I hear Bernie saying what in essence is the > same thing — maybe because I know something about the historical data on > social mobility through Sam Bowles over years at SFI, and those who start > trapped also stay trapped when everybody is trapped, so mechanistically I > hear that part of Bernie’s characterization as correct — and yet a very > large majority of black voters did not think Bernie was their ally. I > don’t know if they disfavored him for the same reasons I preferred others > (by quite a lot) to him, or for completely different reasons such as > hearing him as denying that race oppression is a problem. In the small bit > of his heavily repetitive rhetoric that I heard, I never heard that, but > I’m not black and I didn’t listen to it all with fine attention, so what I > did or didn’t hear doesn’t count. > > Once the society is full of mines, it doesn’t matter where you walk, you > are going to lose a leg. So probably best to accept that everybody is in > the same boat, and be on each other’s side trying to get to something > better. > > Eric > > > > > On Jul 31, 2020, at 11:29 AM, jon zingale <jonzing...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Frank says: "The Republic by Plato" > > Merle says: "Clearly the implicit bias is that all of these reading > > requirements were written by White men." > > > > One point that interests me here is the determination that Plato was > white. > > Perhaps he should be considered white: he likely owned slaves, he was > > educated, and likely had about as much privilege as anyone could imagine > at > > the time. On the other hand, if any of his ancestors found themselves in > the > > new world circa 1900 they likely would have found themselves digging the > > most profound ditches. What exactly is meant by white anyway? Is it > possible > > that producing work powerful enough to influence 2500 years of white > > thinking is what makes Plato white? 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