Glen, I bow to your greater experience. Anybody who can hang into a conversation about vaccines while being spittled at is made of sturner stuff than I. If nothing else, the irony would kill me.
Nick Nick Thompson thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:50 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side I'm fairly certain *I* never called any person stupid. I don't even think anti-vaxxers are stupid people just because the thoughts they're thinking, and their lack of action is stupid. That Dave conflates calling an anti-vaxer stupid vs. calling an anti-vaxxer's anti-vax stance stupid, indicates something about Dave, not about me. So, to be clear, being anti-vax is stupid. But the anti-vaxxer that is anti-vax is not (necessarily) stupid. If, however, a given person's actions-thoughts are overwhelmingly stupid, like 90% of their actions and thoughts are stupid actions and stupid thoughts, then it's a reasonable heuristic to skip all the extra words and ball up all their actions and thoughts into the person. I try not to do that. And based on my ability to have calm, civilized discussions with people who yell spittle in my face, I think I do OK at it. On 8/26/21 9:38 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > I agree, Dave, that calling other people stupid is stupid, even though it is > deeply satisfying and great for organizing lynch parties. > > > > Nick > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Prof David > West > *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:28 AM > *To:* friam@redfish.com > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > > > > > Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/ > > > > Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in > all cases without exception? > > > > Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing > rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us > the enlightened. > > > > Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being > anti-vax, for me personally? > > > > [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from > getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a > matter of coercion.] > > > > davew > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: > >> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient > >> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test > >> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. > >> > >> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. > >> > >> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have >> > sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It >> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is >> > here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. >> > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply >> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't >> > need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting >> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No >> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >> > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM > >> > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > >> > > >> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely >> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a >> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. > >> > > >> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in >> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you >> > suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect >> > the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime >> > soon. > >> > > >> > Taking a look at this site: >> > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new- >> > data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours >> > <https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new >> > -data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours> > >> > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The >> > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid >> > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. > >> > > >> > > >> > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> >> Will you consent to a vaccine? > >> >> > >> >> Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get >> >> lost. > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >> >> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM > >> >> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > >> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > >> >> > >> >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. >> >> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm >> >> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular >> >> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to >> >> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning >> >> with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our >> >> buffer wasn't high enough. > >> >> > >> >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and >> >> take care of both covid patients and regular people. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> >>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let >> >>> them in. > >> >>> > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >> >>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM > >> >>> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > >> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > >> >>> > >> >>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, >> >>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with >> >>> us or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such >> >>> tests. > >> >>> > >> >>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa >> >>> are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists >> >>> dig in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more >> >>> committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists >> >>> out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) >> >>> But as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably. > >> >>> > >> >>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our >> >>> attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow >> >>> beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and >> >>> the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> >>>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests. > -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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