We could also deconflate "should" with "needs to be" in the sense that the former is a social/moral judgement while the latter is intended to be held a adaptive system feedback loop?
If we consider "stupid" to be all things "maladaptive" then "punishing" those behaviours helps to winnow the population (of instances or instances of behaviours) down to those which are more adaptive. "stupidity needs to be punished" might be a tautology in this context? > Glen, > > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and > "self-preservation". There is something incoherent about asserting that > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience. > > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts? > > N > > Nick Thompson > thompnicks...@gmail.com > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:53 AM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side > > I suppose it all depends on what "anti-vax" means, eh? If you take "anti-vax" > to mean a kind of nihilistic "who cares?", then no. If you take "anti-vax" to > mean "the spike protein made by the body in response to the mRNA vaccines is > toxic", then yes. If you take "anti-vax" to mean "the vaccines contain > aborted fetal tissue and it would be immoral for me to inject that into my > body", then yes. Etc. > > By "anti-vax", most of Us the Enlightened are referring *not* to clear > thinking people who have a calculus for making such decisions. We're > referring to group thinkers who get the majority of their "scientific > information" from Facebook posts from their friends. > > A person who sincerely doubts ingesting the vaccines and bases that doubt on > controversial (not fully falsified nonsense) evidence would not be "anti-vax" > in my book. (I'm looking at Pieter! 8^D) > > If you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on obvious stupidity, > then yes, I'd call your conclusions and analysis stupid. And stupidity must > be painful. But if you base your analytical evaluation and conclusions on the > truly questionable rhetoric put forth by others, then no, I'd call it > *skeptical*. And skepticism must be rewarded. > > I'm not anti-vax because, in general, I'm not anti-*, anti-anything. I'm not > really even anti-stupidity. I do stupid stuff all the time, come to stupid > conclusions all the time. That's mostly because I'm contrarian. But my > stupidity is painful and my contrary nature ensures that it is painful. In > the end, Marcus' rhetoric is right. Shun the anti-vax from institutions, > where reasonable. E.g. I intend to attend a small concert in September as a > birthday gift to both me and Renee'. However, entry at the door will require > evidence of vax status *or* a PCR test result dated within the last 48 hours. > And I think that's the right thing to do. If you're anti-vax, no King Buffalo > for you! > > > On 8/26/21 8:27 AM, Prof David West wrote: >> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/ >> >> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in >> all cases without exception? >> >> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing >> rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us >> the enlightened. >> >> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being >> anti-vax, for me personally? >> >> [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from >> getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a >> matter of coercion.] >> >> davew >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote: >>> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient >>> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test >>> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful. >>> >>> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness. >>> >>> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have >>>> sufficient capacity. Through a triage process they can prioritize. It >>>> must happen already, even if it isn't legal. Oh, the local drug addict is >>>> here again. That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors. >>>> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply >>>> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't >>>> need to be a mandate. And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting >>>> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc. No >>>> shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >>>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM >>>> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >>>> >>>> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely >>>> irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a >>>> gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not. >>>> >>>> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in >>>> the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you >>>> suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect >>>> the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime >>>> soon. >>>> >>>> Taking a look at this site: >>>> https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new- >>>> data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours >>>> <https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new >>>> -data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours> >>>> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The >>>> actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid >>>> patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>> Will you consent to a vaccine? >>>>> >>>>> Yes: You get treatment for your non-COVID condition. No: Get >>>>> lost. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >>>>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM >>>>> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >>>>> >>>>> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. >>>>> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm >>>>> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular >>>>> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to >>>>> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning >>>>> with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our >>>>> buffer wasn't high enough. >>>>> >>>>> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and >>>>> take care of both covid patients and regular people. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals? Just don't let >>>>>> them in. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >>>>>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM >>>>>> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, >>>>>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with >>>>>> us or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such >>>>>> tests. >>>>>> >>>>>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa >>>>>> are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists >>>>>> dig in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more >>>>>> committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists >>>>>> out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) >>>>>> But as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably. >>>>>> >>>>>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our >>>>>> attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow >>>>>> beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and >>>>>> the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>>>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests. >>> >>> -- >>> ☤>$ uǝlƃ >>> >>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >>> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> un/subscribe >>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>> >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> > -- > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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