To be clear though, this requires a flexible understanding of "agent" or whatever's doing the indirect coordinating "through" the environment. I.e. "stygmergy" isn't very well defined.
On 10/19/21 12:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Game of Life has been shown to be universal > > > > https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life > > <https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life> > > > > I would expect there are many “intermediate lambda” CAs that behave this way, > and so could implement any simulation manifesting stigmergy. > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 12:40 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > > > > Interesting point. What do the others think? > > > > I think if you start with an "X" at the top and consider the X as your agent > and the space to the left and right as the environment then yes, we would > have a kind of stygmergy model for an agent which interacts in a two > dimensional world (one space and one time dimension). It is a rather limited > model though. I am not sure if it is useful :-/ > > > > -J. > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > > Date: 10/19/21 21:28 (GMT+01:00) > > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > > > > Thanks, Jochen, for answering. > > > > Let me try to stretch the point and see if I can bring you on board. In the > first place, mimimally, stygmergy need not involve sociality. So, If I go > out on a hike and cut blazes on trees on my way out so I can find my way > home, that is stygmergy in good standing, right? > > > > Now let’s try a very simple ca where the rule is, if nothing is written, > write x; if x, white o beside; if o, write x beside. > > > > X > > OXO > > XOXOX > > ETC. > > > > Now, if we consider what is written at each stage as a thing put out in the > environment and the “rules” what the organism brings to the table then each > line is the joint product of the previous line and the rule, hence stygmergy. > > > > Am I stretching a point. Is everything not stygmergy? > > > > N > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> > *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:05 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > > > > No, CAs are not a good model for stygmergy IMHO. Stygmergy is as Wikipedia > says a mechanism of indirect coordination through the environment. For > example: ants which exploit a food source by following a pheromone trail. Or > termites which build a nest. > > > In Cellular Automata there is no clear distinction between agent and > environment. They are just a grid of states which evolves step by step by > updating the cells with a transition rule or function. > > The other type of collective intelligence besides stygmergy is swarm > formation. The individual member is attracted to the group as a whole but > repelled by other individuals. You know the classic Boids rules which govern > fish swarms and bird flocks: "stay close to the group but keep away from your > neighbors". > > For more complex things you probably need a code. If the individuals are > smart, then a few rules are enough - holy books have typically only a few MB. > If the individuals are lifeless molecules, then the code can be several GB (a > human genome has roughly 3 GB). > > > > Hope that helps a bit? You are lucky to have such a smart grandson! I believe > Frank has grandchildren too. > > Jochen > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > > Date: 10/19/21 20:15 (GMT+01:00) > > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > > Subject: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development > > > > Friends, > > Beware. As usual, I am trying to get you to think for me. > > My grandson is working on a regeneration project in his freshman biolab > (Planaria) and his sources and texts are replete with cognitive language like > “signal” and “memory” etc., which implies that as the worm regenerates it is > influenced by a guiding idea of what it is producing. My basic intuition, as > you know, that this doesn’t happen in human cognition, let alone worm > regeneration and that processes that produce a functional head from a slice > of the rear end of a flatworm have no idea what they are doing even when they > are done. Thus I imagine an advancing edge of structure with each new bit > influencing the rules by which the next bit . Which, of course, puts me in > mind both of stygmergy and of Cellular Automata. So to my questions: > > Are Cellular Automata a good model for Stygmergy? > > Is Stygmergy a good model for organismic development? > > Why? Or Why not? Discuss. > > > > Also, is there a good website, citizen-friendly, steep learning curve, where > my grandson and I could explore the relation between developmental processes > and ca’s. I looked at NewLogo Library and did not find there any models of > regeneration, but may not have known where to look. I did find THIS > <https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/> which deep down in the Table of > Contents seemed to have three regeneration models including one named > “Planaria”, but I could no see how to go further with it. If somebody could > have a look at it and give me some tips for how to use it, I would be ever so > grateful. > > > > Good to be back. -- "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." ☤>$ uǝlƃ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
