What I was driving at is that nature doesn’t give a damn whether we categorize certain globs of stuff as “agents” or “environment” or “transactions”. Stigmergy could be going all the time in some subtle way we can’t discern because we are looking at the pieces the wrong way.
> On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:05 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > To be clear though, this requires a flexible understanding of "agent" or > whatever's doing the indirect coordinating "through" the environment. I.e. > "stygmergy" isn't very well defined. > >> On 10/19/21 12:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> Game of Life has been shown to be universal >> >> >> >> https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life >> >> <https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life> >> >> >> >> I would expect there are many “intermediate lambda” CAs that behave this >> way, and so could implement any simulation manifesting stigmergy. >> >> >> >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 12:40 PM >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >> >> >> >> Interesting point. What do the others think? >> >> >> >> I think if you start with an "X" at the top and consider the X as your agent >> and the space to the left and right as the environment then yes, we would >> have a kind of stygmergy model for an agent which interacts in a two >> dimensional world (one space and one time dimension). It is a rather limited >> model though. I am not sure if it is useful :-/ >> >> >> >> -J. >> >> >> >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> >> From: thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> >> Date: 10/19/21 21:28 (GMT+01:00) >> >> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com >> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> >> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >> >> >> >> Thanks, Jochen, for answering. >> >> >> >> Let me try to stretch the point and see if I can bring you on board. In the >> first place, mimimally, stygmergy need not involve sociality. So, If I go >> out on a hike and cut blazes on trees on my way out so I can find my way >> home, that is stygmergy in good standing, right? >> >> >> >> Now let’s try a very simple ca where the rule is, if nothing is written, >> write x; if x, white o beside; if o, write x beside. >> >> >> >> X >> >> OXO >> >> XOXOX >> >> ETC. >> >> >> >> Now, if we consider what is written at each stage as a thing put out in the >> environment and the “rules” what the organism brings to the table then each >> line is the joint product of the previous line and the rule, hence >> stygmergy. >> >> >> >> Am I stretching a point. Is everything not stygmergy? >> >> >> >> N >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson >> >> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> >> >> >> >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> >> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:05 PM >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com >> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >> >> >> >> No, CAs are not a good model for stygmergy IMHO. Stygmergy is as Wikipedia >> says a mechanism of indirect coordination through the environment. For >> example: ants which exploit a food source by following a pheromone trail. Or >> termites which build a nest. >> >> >> In Cellular Automata there is no clear distinction between agent and >> environment. They are just a grid of states which evolves step by step by >> updating the cells with a transition rule or function. >> >> The other type of collective intelligence besides stygmergy is swarm >> formation. The individual member is attracted to the group as a whole but >> repelled by other individuals. You know the classic Boids rules which govern >> fish swarms and bird flocks: "stay close to the group but keep away from >> your neighbors". >> >> For more complex things you probably need a code. If the individuals are >> smart, then a few rules are enough - holy books have typically only a few >> MB. If the individuals are lifeless molecules, then the code can be several >> GB (a human genome has roughly 3 GB). >> >> >> >> Hope that helps a bit? You are lucky to have such a smart grandson! I >> believe Frank has grandchildren too. >> >> Jochen >> >> >> >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> >> From: thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> >> Date: 10/19/21 20:15 (GMT+01:00) >> >> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com >> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> >> >> Subject: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development >> >> >> >> Friends, >> >> Beware. As usual, I am trying to get you to think for me. >> >> My grandson is working on a regeneration project in his freshman biolab >> (Planaria) and his sources and texts are replete with cognitive language >> like “signal” and “memory” etc., which implies that as the worm regenerates >> it is influenced by a guiding idea of what it is producing. My basic >> intuition, as you know, that this doesn’t happen in human cognition, let >> alone worm regeneration and that processes that produce a functional head >> from a slice of the rear end of a flatworm have no idea what they are doing >> even when they are done. Thus I imagine an advancing edge of structure with >> each new bit influencing the rules by which the next bit . Which, of >> course, puts me in mind both of stygmergy and of Cellular Automata. So to >> my questions: >> >> Are Cellular Automata a good model for Stygmergy? >> >> Is Stygmergy a good model for organismic development? >> >> Why? Or Why not? Discuss. >> >> >> >> Also, is there a good website, citizen-friendly, steep learning curve, where >> my grandson and I could explore the relation between developmental processes >> and ca’s. I looked at NewLogo Library and did not find there any models of >> regeneration, but may not have known where to look. I did find THIS >> <https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/> which deep down in the Table of >> Contents seemed to have three regeneration models including one named >> “Planaria”, but I could no see how to go further with it. If somebody could >> have a look at it and give me some tips for how to use it, I would be ever >> so grateful. >> >> >> >> Good to be back. > > -- > "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . 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