I agree. I use the distinction (artificial vs natural) as a rhetorical crutch. What we *should* do, what I've asked Nick to do, is talk about how we *measure* outcomes, how they *scale*. If we run something like a principal component analysis on all the outcomes and let the data tell us which parts are primary and which parts secondary, then we don't need the artifical vs natural distinction (or the epi- vs phenomena distinction) at all. This outcome's salience is 0.00001, that outcome's salience is 10000.0.
Of course, if you change the measure, you get a different distribution. But if we don't talk, at all, about the measure(s) being used for the classification, then we're just talking nonsense. I don't like the following words. But the distinction between [un]supervised learning is similar. Except there, I tend to argue that there is no such thing as unsupervised learning. The very choice of any family of models biases the eventual model you select. On 11/29/21 9:10 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > I'm not clear on where/why one draws the line between artificial and natural. > Artificial things have resulted from natural processes. These higher-order > and relatively sharp fitness landscapes have mesas we call features. They > usually don't involve people dying or failing to reproduce, but they do > involve organized behavior by humans stopping, e.g. companies that go > bankrupt. A continuous integration system running regression tests seems > to have some properties of selection. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of ? glen > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 6:14 AM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation > > Right. Agnostic discovery of the artifacts resulting from an artificial > machine comes much closer to what happens in natural systems, yes. Those > artifacts would only be considered secondary or side-effects IF the > exploration were NOT agnostic, motivated. You can only separate the artifacts > into primary vs secondary IF you had a purpose in the assembly. No purpose, > no distinction of primary vs secondary. > > But what you can do is measure the impact of all the resulting artifacts, on > some scale, and order them that way, a distribution of primacy. Outcome O1 > might be Y times more impactful, downstream than outcome O2. If THAT were > what we meant by "secondary" effect, then it would be less laden with > intention. > > But that's not what Nick seems to be doing. By insisting that some effects > are, by definition, secondary and others primary, he's asserting an > intention/purpose to the assembly. > > > On November 28, 2021 9:40:42 PM PST, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote: >> An ab initio simulation of a biochemical system would have a foundation of >> some human-engineered code and the atomic model simulated might have some >> simplifying assumptions. The low energy configurations and dynamics are >> discovered, not engineered. Yet it is all reproducible on a digital >> computer with precise causality and in some cases has shown fidelity with >> physical experiments. >> >>> On Nov 28, 2021, at 9:14 PM, ⛧ glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> This sounds like impredicativity, which can be a problem in parallel >>> computation (resulting in deadlock or race). Unimplemented math has no >>> problem with it, though. And I'm guessing that some of the higher order >>> proof assistants find ways around it. A definitional loop seems distinct >>> from iteration. So, no; I don't see a problem with iteration in digital >>> computation. I simply don't think the intelligent design we do when >>> programming is analogous to biological evolution. The former clearly has >>> side effects (epiphenomena). I argue the latter does not. >>> >>>> On November 28, 2021 5:40:31 PM PST, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> Glen had said something a while ago implying that (that trivial meaning >>>> for) loops were somehow more challenging for digital computers. I >>>> didn’t get it. >>>> -- "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." ☤>$ uǝlƃ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
