Many years ago I was holding my daughter when she was tiny and I didn't have a shirt on. She went after one of my nipples. I would have explained the problem but she didn't speak yet. She turned out fine.
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 2:56 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: > Eric Smith writes: > > < Why do male mammals have nipples? > > > If I were arguing with the apologists, fundamentalists, etc. at one of > their hate demonstrations, this is where I'd raise the obvious fact that > God wants to facilitate the practice of transsexualism. Oh, to be young > again. > > Marcus > ------------------------------ > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of David Eric Smith < > desm...@santafe.edu> > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:36 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality > > The framing that this question has has always felt so bizarre to me, but I > have struggled to explain why, and what would not be bizarre. It feels > like a bunch of set-theoreticians sitting in armchairs arguing about what > “awareness” “must be like” so that they can predict it from their habitual > formulations in mathematical logic. > > Why do male mammals have nipples? Because mammals have nipples. Why > isn’t that odd, that a strict suppression of all the developmental > machinery that creates nipples might not be “encoded” in some wildly fancy > collection of genes all localized within a Y chromosome? Because who the > hell would bother with all that, when one can just form them and not use > them in half the members, and not think about it further. > > Correspondingly, what the hell is “attraction to men” or “attraction to > women” (in real, nuts and bolts operational terms?). Do we know? Does > “evolution know?” If nobody knows what it is, how could there ever be some > maniacal effort to localize it onto a sex chromosome? And even more, what > to do when sex determination isn’t alternation of chromosomes, but > something bizarre and asymmetric like XX/XY systems? > > But if “nobody” knows what it is, and much of whatever “it is” is drawing > from lots of stuff across autosomes, then: > > Why are some men attracted to men? Because lots of women are attracted to > men. > Why are some women attracted to women? Because lots of men are attracted > to women. > How is the argument any different from any of D’arcy Thompson’s arguments? > > If fish can determine sex facultatively according to environment, then the > overall project of getting two mating types (as the genders are referred to > in yeast) out of what is broadly “one genome” (+/- Y and +/- mitochondria) > is a pretty complicated, plastic, and signalable capacity. It seems like > just the kind of thing that wouldn’t repay the cost of hammering it down > into some strict program like nematode cell division or the lobster > stomatogastric complex’s operations. > > The whole bizarreness in this seems to me like it comes somehow from what > people assign as “traits” and then insist there must be “explanations > for”. It would be as bad as taking a word (like “emergence”) and then > going on and on arguing about what it “really means”. Oh, sorry… that was > a different hobby horse. > > Eric > > > > On Jan 12, 2022, at 1:04 PM, Eric Charles <eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Re potential evolutionary explanations for homosexuality: They really > don't have to be very convoluted at all. > > I prepared a worksheet for a class 15 or so years ago, after a bunch of > students starting trying use homosexuality as proof that evolution couldn't > explain (any) behavior. I'd rather just link to the blog... but to make > things easier for other's, I'll also copy-paste below: Fixing Psychology: > Evolution and Homosexuality > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ffixingpsychology.blogspot.com%2f2012%2f03%2fevolution-and-homosexuality.html&c=E,1,fjB6y7zacZOW2c99wRxey5Lby--zc7qrZ3QNS4epbVLVKj_YkeEkujyM9uAGrhOPS5wAlhjLdkWXrmPWxwBRI48IRm6U1Birh_yrq8AhxQB74qgzHQzsT2TH_mpF&typo=1> > > ==================== > > Evolution and Homosexuality > > Evolutionary theorists could potentially explain homosexuality using three > distinct methods. The first two take the modern notion of homosexuality at > face value, the third questions it. > > 1. Explain homosexuality as a benefit in and of itself. > > The most straightforward way to explain the presence of *any *trait using > evolutionary logic is to tell a story about how individuals with that trait > reproduce their genes better than those without the trait. In the case of > exclusive homosexuality, that is difficult, because homosexuals do not > reproduce. However, it is still possible. > > For example, a costly traits may be so helpful to your relatives (i.e., > your kin) that it more than makes up for the cost you pay. This is called > “kin selection”. Your children will share 50% of your genes, so we can give > them a value of .5 in terms of your reproduction. A full sibling’s children > share 25% of your genes, so we can give them a value of .25. That means > that if you posses a trait that makes you have one less child on average > (-.5), but you get three more nephews or nieces in exchange (+.75), natural > selection will favor that trait (= .25). On average, the next generation > will have more of your genes by virtue of your possessing a trait that > makes you have fewer children. This explanation could be even more powerful > when applied your own parents, i.e., helping raise your brothers and > sisters, with whom you share as many genes as your own children (both .5). > > If that was the explanation for human homosexuality, what might you also > expect to be true of homosexuality? > > > 2. Explain homosexuality as a byproduct of other adaptive mechanisms. > > There are many types of explanations compatible with evolutionary theory, > but that do not explain the traits under questions as adaptations in and of > themselves. In one way or another, these explanations explain traits as the > byproduct of some other adaptive process. The trait in question could be a > necessary byproduct of two evolutionarily sound items; for example, an > armpit appears when you combine a torso with an arm, but no animal was ever > selected specifically for having armpits! Alternatively, the trait in > question could be the result of an adaptive mechanism placed in an unusual > context; for example, evolution favored humans that desired sweet and fatty > food in an environment where such things were rare; now that we are in an > environment where such things are plentiful, this desire can cause serious > health problems. Homosexuality could be explainable in terms of biological > or psychological mechanisms acting appropriately in odd circumstances, or > as a byproduct of selection for other beneficial traits. > > If that explanation were correct, what types of traits might humans have > been selected for that could result in homosexuality when pushed to the > extreme or placed in unusual circumstances? > > 3. Reject the notion of homosexuality as it is currently conceived and > offer new categories. > > Evolutionary thinking often necessitates a rejection of old categories and > the creation of new ones. The current systems of dividing the world may not > be relevant to answering evolutionary questions. The labels “Homosexual” > and “Heterosexual” may be good examples. The modern notions of strict homo > vs. hetero-sexuality arose relatively recently. It has never been bizarrely > uncommon for women or men to live together or to set up long term > relationships with members of the same sex. What is relatively new is the > notion that this can divide people into types, some who exclusively do one > thing and some who exclusively do another. A so-called homosexual man need > only have sex with a woman once to have a baby, and visa versa. While this > is now the stuff of comedic amusement, it may be a much more natural > context for homosexuality. There may be no reason to think that so-called > homosexuals of the past got pregnant, or impregnated others, less often > than so-called hetersexuals. > > If this is the case, would there necessarily be any selection for or > against preferring the relatively exclusive company of same-sex others? > What possible benefits could there be to raising children in a “homosexual” > environment? (Hey now, don’t bring moral judgment into this, it is only a > question of surviving and thriving.) > <echar...@american.edu> > > ============================ > > On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 6:13 PM ⛧ glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'm in an ongoing argument with a gay friend about how tortured Darwinian > arguments are in accounting for homosexuality. He claims they're VERY > torturous. I'm inclined toward the first mentioned here: > https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486 > > But, were group selection and/or cultural evolution a thing, then my > friend would be more right. 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