Thanks. I'm still concerned it sounds more like diagnostic criteria from, say, the DSM-V than something that could be axiomatically generated in a simulation. My guess is, as relatively specific as it is (compared to say Eco's Ur-Fascism), it's too robust a (set of) phenomena. I.e. the space of possible generators that can generate Fascism, as defined, is computationally too huge to make any kind of constructive project feasible.
If that's the case, then by talking about it as a dynamical system, you'd need to commit to allowing at least some structural features of the dynamical system remain *latent*, occult, never understandable except through indirect markers. Perhaps *some* mechanisms could be built (e.g. violence). So you'd have a composite system, one part opaque oracle (perhaps with randomly generated mechanisms) and one part axiomatic. On 5/10/23 14:19, Jochen Fromm wrote:
Yes, Robert Paxton tries to describe the essence of fascism in his book. While Hannah Arendt and Erich Fromm described fascism in Germany, and Stanley G. Payne is an expert for fascism in Spain, Robert Paxton is an expert for fascism in France during German occupation in WW II. He argues that it can reach different stages, just like the 5 stages of cancer in various degrees of severity. Chapter 2 to 6 in Paxton's book are dedicated to the 5 stages. Each chapter describes one stage, and one stage is a prerequisite for the next. The 5 stages are: (1) the creation of movements (2) their rooting in the political system (3) their seizure of power (4) the exercise of power (5) radicalization For the 1st stage, the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of mobilizing passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s foundations": from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external". In the final chapter 8 Paxton finally gives a definition of fascism and argues that "fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion". He argues that violence is a important hallmark of fascism: "the legitimation of violence against a demonized internal enemy brings us close to the heart of fascism" and that it would be "a phenomenon of failed democracies". -J. -------- Original message -------- From: glen <geprope...@gmail.com> Date: 5/10/23 4:47 PM (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system I haven't read Anatomy of Fascism. But one of the things I worry about, even though I make my career from it, is arguing by analogy. It sounds like Paxton is attempting to essentialize fascism. Is that the case? We've explored, a bit on this list, some problems with essentialism and reductionism. While it's good to de-universalize a concept (because if it applies everywhere, then it's not useful), that specificity in denotation (e.g. Islamists not being fascist) can be made observationally or constructively/axiomatically. In alignment with Feynman, if you can't construct the phenomenon, then you don't understand it. Of course, I know Paxton can't (and wouldn't) construct a fascist society. That's why simulation is a good thing. 8^D But does Anatomy of Fascism read as a recipe, a how-to? Or is it more like a collection of observational case studies? On 5/10/23 03:41, Jochen Fromm wrote: > I don't know much about South Africa but one direction towards higher stages of Paxton's fascism scale is certainly democratic backsliding. Democratic backsliding can happen if a country is in a deep crisis and has a "strongman" leader which longs to stay in power. Orban in Hungary, Erdoğan in Turkey and Netanyahu in Israel have eroded democracy in their countries because they wanted to stay in power at all costs. Ruth Ben-Ghiat wrote about it in her book "Strongmen" [1]. > > The more interesting aspect is to view it as a disorder of the system. Already Plato considered tyranny as a disease and disorder of a state [2]. He defined a tyrant as a person who rules without law, using extreme and cruel methods against both his own people and others. In a tyranny, the city is enslaved to the tyrant, who is in turn a slave to his desires and uses his guards to remove social elements and individuals that pose a threat to retain power. He will also provoke warfare to consolidate his position as leader. Aristotle says tyranny is a selfish rule by a single individual: "tyranny is a kind of monarchy which has in view the interest of the monarch only" [2]. He describes it as "arbitrary power of an individual which is responsible to no one, and governs all alike, whether equals or better, with a view to is own advantage, not to that of its subjects, and therefore against their will." > > Obviously it makes a difference if a country is ruled by a dictator or not. Milan Svolik says tyrants and dictators live in constant fear they will be overthrown and rely on a number of allies to govern [3]: "All dictators face threats from the masses, and I call the political problem of balancing against the majority excluded from power the problem of authoritarian control. Yet dictators rarely control enough resources to preclude such challenges on their own - they therefore rule with a number of allies, whether they be traditional elites, prominent party members, or generals in charge of repression. A second, separate political conflict arises [...] the problem of authoritarian power-sharing" > > -J. > > [1] Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Strongmen > https://wwnorton.com/books/strongmen > > [2] Robert Boesche, Theories of Tyranny, The Pennsylvania State University Press, 1996 > > [3] Milan W. Svolik, The politics of authoritarian rule, Cambridge University Press, 2012 > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pieter Steenekamp <piet...@randcontrols.co.za> > Date: 5/10/23 9:25 AM (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system > > We're facing a difficult situation in South Africa. The upcoming BRICS summit in Cape Town, scheduled for August 22-24, includes an invitation to Putin. However, the International Criminal Court has issued a warrant for his arrest due to allegations of illicit dealings with Ukrainian children. As a signatory of the ICC, South Africa is technically obligated to detain him if he appears. While we enjoyed a positive reputation during Mandela's presidency, the country faced significant setbacks under Jacob Zuma's leadership. The current president, Cyril Rhamaphosa, appears to lack power. Well, lacking power could mean we might rate very low according to Paxton, which is a good thing? > > On Tue, 9 May 2023 at 23:20, Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote: > > In Putin's speech on victory day today he argued that Russia is again fighting against fascism while the country clearly shows increasingly signs of fascism itself: from the angry dictator and the dread of the nation's decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism to the overwhelming feeling of victimhood almost all of the mobilizing passions defined by Robert Paxton were present. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism> > > Even Prigozhin's Wagner group reminds me of the Waffen-SS during the time of Nazism: an armed combat branch of the organization that is responsible for the protection of the dictator which acts in competition to the regular armed forces and is known for war crimes and extreme brutality. > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/09/putin-recycles-old-grievances-on-victory-day-as-russian-army-battered-in-ukraine <https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/09/putin-recycles-old-grievances-on-victory-day-as-russian-army-battered-in-ukraine> > > I'm interested in understanding this complex process of social evolution where a country falls back into dark ages in terms of dynamical systems. Why are the structures always so similar? Why does Paxton's final stage five almost always end in war, violence and invasion of other countries? Luckily Trump only reached Paxton's stage three - and hopefully the conviction today will prevent that he is coming back... >
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