Not all movements are fascist movements. A key difference is if they accept
violence as a legitimate tool or not. The Nazi party started with violent
street fights and ended in a violent world war. Robert Paxton and Hannah Arndt
both emphasize the use of violence and terror in totalitarian systems. Hannah
Arendt and Juan José Linz agree that far-right Nazism and far-left Soviet
Communism were similar phenomena. Linz writes "Stalinism and fascism, in spite
of a deep difference in social foundations, are symmetrical phenomena. In many
of their features they show a deadly similarity." (in his book "Totalitarian
and Authoritarian Regimes").One of the similarities besides the propaganda in a
dictatorial one-party system was the use of terror and violence. In smaller
movements the use of violence usually leads to terrorist groups. In West
Germany where I was born we had the RAF (Red Army Faction) at the time of the
Cold War which was a far-left terrorist group that used violence to achieve
their political aims. It was supported by the KGB in Eastern Germany, the zone
occupied by Russia where Putin started his career.-J.
-------- Original message --------From: Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm>
Date: 5/11/23 2:32 AM (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM]
Paxton's stages as a dynamical system Once upon a time, I was a card carrying
(metaphorically) bomb making (literally), persecuted (FBI and CIA in Japan)
revolutionary.I was also an acid head, free love, hippy.The "card carrying"
part denotes my membership in / participation in a "movement." The Paxton quote
you shared —the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of
mobilizing passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s
foundations": from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any
traditional solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment
that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies,
both internal and external" — would certainly apply to that movement. United
states, circa 1964-1972.To the extent that my observation is 'valid'; and the
quote is representative of Paxton (have not read) then all movements are
fascist whether they originated from the "left" or the "right."davewOn Wed, May
10, 2023, at 3:19 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:Yes, Robert Paxton tries to describe
the essence of fascism in his book. While Hannah Arendt and Erich Fromm
described fascism in Germany, and Stanley G. Payne is an expert for fascism in
Spain, Robert Paxton is an expert for fascism in France during German
occupation in WW II. He argues that it can reach different stages, just like
the 5 stages of cancer in various degrees of severity. Chapter 2 to 6 in
Paxton's book are dedicated to the 5 stages. Each chapter describes one stage,
and one stage is a prerequisite for the next. The 5 stages are:(1) the creation
of movements(2) their rooting in the political system(3) their seizure of
power(4) the exercise of power (5) radicalization For the 1st stage, the
creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of mobilizing passions
which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s foundations": from "a sense of
overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions" to "the
belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action,
without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and
external".In the final chapter 8 Paxton finally gives a definition of fascism
and argues that "fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked
by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood
and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based
party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective
collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and
pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals
of internal cleansing and external expansion".He argues that violence is a
important hallmark of fascism: "the legitimation of violence against a
demonized internal enemy brings us close to the heart of fascism" and that it
would be "a phenomenon of failed democracies".-J.-------- Original message
--------From: glen <geprope...@gmail.com>Date: 5/10/23 4:47 PM (GMT+01:00)To:
friam@redfish.comSubject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical systemI
haven't read Anatomy of Fascism. But one of the things I worry about, even
though I make my career from it, is arguing by analogy. It sounds like Paxton
is attempting to essentialize fascism. Is that the case? We've explored, a bit
on this list, some problems with essentialism and reductionism. While it's good
to de-universalize a concept (because if it applies everywhere, then it's not
useful), that specificity in denotation (e.g. Islamists not being fascist) can
be made observationally or constructively/axiomatically. In alignment with
Feynman, if you can't construct the phenomenon, then you don't understand it.Of
course, I know Paxton can't (and wouldn't) construct a fascist society. That's
why simulation is a good thing. 8^D But does Anatomy of Fascism read as a
recipe, a how-to? Or is it more like a collection of observational case
studies?On 5/10/23 03:41, Jochen Fromm wrote:> I don't know much about South
Africa but one direction towards higher stages of Paxton's fascism scale is
certainly democratic backsliding. Democratic backsliding can happen if a
country is in a deep crisis and has a "strongman" leader which longs to stay in
power. Orban in Hungary, Erdoğan in Turkey and Netanyahu in Israel have eroded
democracy in their countries because they wanted to stay in power at all costs.
Ruth Ben-Ghiat wrote about it in her book "Strongmen" [1].> > The more
interesting aspect is to view it as a disorder of the system. Already Plato
considered tyranny as a disease and disorder of a state [2]. He defined a
tyrant as a person who rules without law, using extreme and cruel methods
against both his own people and others. In a tyranny, the city is enslaved to
the tyrant, who is in turn a slave to his desires and uses his guards to remove
social elements and individuals that pose a threat to retain power. He will
also provoke warfare to consolidate his position as leader. Aristotle says
tyranny is a selfish rule by a single individual: "tyranny is a kind of
monarchy which has in view the interest of the monarch only" [2]. He describes
it as "arbitrary power of an individual which is responsible to no one, and
governs all alike, whether equals or better, with a view to is own advantage,
not to that of its subjects, and therefore against their will."> > Obviously it
makes a difference if a country is ruled by a dictator or not. Milan Svolik
says tyrants and dictators live in constant fear they will be overthrown and
rely on a number of allies to govern [3]: "All dictators face threats from the
masses, and I call the political problem of balancing against the majority
excluded from power the problem of authoritarian control. Yet dictators rarely
control enough resources to preclude such challenges on their own - they
therefore rule with a number of allies, whether they be traditional elites,
prominent party members, or generals in charge of repression. A second,
separate political conflict arises [...] the problem of authoritarian
power-sharing"> > -J.> > [1] Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Strongmen>
https://wwnorton.com/books/strongmen> > [2] Robert Boesche, Theories of
Tyranny, The Pennsylvania State University Press, 1996> > [3] Milan W. Svolik,
The politics of authoritarian rule, Cambridge University Press, 2012> > >
-------- Original message --------> From: Pieter Steenekamp
<piet...@randcontrols.co.za>> Date: 5/10/23 9:25 AM (GMT+01:00)> To: The Friday
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re:
[FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system> > We're facing a difficult
situation in South Africa. The upcoming BRICS summit in Cape Town, scheduled
for August 22-24, includes an invitation to Putin. However, the International
Criminal Court has issued a warrant for his arrest due to allegations of
illicit dealings with Ukrainian children. As a signatory of the ICC, South
Africa is technically obligated to detain him if he appears. While we enjoyed a
positive reputation during Mandela's presidency, the country faced significant
setbacks under Jacob Zuma's leadership. The current president, Cyril
Rhamaphosa, appears to lack power. Well, lacking power could mean we might rate
very low according to Paxton, which is a good thing?> > On Tue, 9 May 2023 at
23:20, Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:> >
In Putin's speech on victory day today he argued that Russia is again
fighting against fascism while the country clearly shows increasingly signs of
fascism itself: from the angry dictator and the dread of the nation's decline
under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism to the overwhelming
feeling of victimhood almost all of the mobilizing passions defined by Robert
Paxton were present.> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism>> > Even Prigozhin's
Wagner group reminds me of the Waffen-SS during the time of Nazism: an armed
combat branch of the organization that is responsible for the protection of the
dictator which acts in competition to the regular armed forces and is known for
war crimes and extreme brutality.>
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/09/putin-recycles-old-grievances-on-victory-day-as-russian-army-battered-in-ukraine
<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/09/putin-recycles-old-grievances-on-victory-day-as-russian-army-battered-in-ukraine>>
> I'm interested in understanding this complex process of social evolution
where a country falls back into dark ages in terms of dynamical systems. Why
are the structures always so similar? Why does Paxton's final stage five almost
always end in war, violence and invasion of other countries? Luckily Trump only
reached Paxton's stage three - and hopefully the conviction today will prevent
that he is coming back...> -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ-.
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