There's also "Hanna" (2011) and the series that followed.
> On May 31, 2023, at 6:24 AM, glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > What?!? The idea of a gaggle of toddlers running around hunting and cooking, > say, boar for supper is astounding. Even Children of the Corn were older than > 2. 8^D > >> On 5/31/23 06:19, Prof David West wrote: >> "the extended juvenile development of humans," is an artifact of modern >> industrial society. For "de-domesticated humans" development to, mostly, >> independent existence was only marginally longer than that of other large >> mammals. Roughly two years for humans, 18 months for elephants and bears and >> large cats,12 months for a host of other species. >> davew >>> On Wed, May 31, 2023, at 5:34 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote: >>> Eric's musing on the character of the saving remnant reminded me of Ötzi, >>> the Tyrolean ice mummy, as portrayed in >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(2017_film) >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(2017_film)>. >>> >>> Some commentators note the western movie tropes, but when Ötzi gears up to >>> chase down the pillagers of his family settlement, he also straps on the >>> infant who was the sole survivor of the pillaging. Of course he drops the >>> kid off with the first available woman he meets. >>> >>> Shades of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub>, the samurai with a baby >>> carriage. But as I remember, the cub became part of the lone wolf's >>> arsenal. >>> >>> So, when you posit a de-domesticated human, what happens to the extended >>> juvenile development of humans? Babies and toddlers are going to remain >>> domestic concerns no matter how much bourgeois mediocrity you eject from >>> your morality, no? And I guess burnt out philosophers with mental health >>> issues will be domestic issues, too, even if they were once supermen? >>> >>> -- rec -- >>> >>>> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 10:04 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com >>>> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: >>> >>> "What do I think the saving remnant will be? I imagine people who lost >>> all the epigenetic marks associated with domestication, and took on hormone >>> profiles more like chimps. Or “born this way” to PTSD." >>> >>> In stories like Elysium, the saving remnant survives. Why doesn't >>> popular science fiction consider the future in which only Elysium endures? >>> We have lots of experience on earth making sure that communities are >>> partitioned by socioeconomic status. All of the saving remnants I see >>> around here are homeless or hovering near death due to use of heroin and >>> fentanyl. The deer, however, happily munch on my front yard plants. >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film) >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film)> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of glen >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 7:27 AM >>> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege >>> >>> "Somehow not the domain of peace and spirituality that I think >>> first-worlders like to project onto first-nationers, and which might even >>> be true for the first-nationers, since they are also from a milder time by >>> a lot than a large extinction." >>> >>> IDK, man. Are wild animals different from us in any significant way? Are >>> they actually never lazy, never unvigilant, etc? Or, perhaps, is the >>> attribution of vigilance (and hence never unvigilance) an illusion born of >>> othering? A standard whipping post for me is this "Are you a cat person or >>> a dog person" cocktail party ice breaker. Admitting the false dichotomy, >>> dog people tend to think of cats as non-social, selfish, blahblah. Cat >>> people tend to think of dogs as slobbery, vapid, etc. It's complete >>> nonsense born of arbitrary delusions. >>> >>> But of course, there is something to be said of the built environment. >>> It would be difficult for a human reared in a city to navigate the >>> Mongolian desert. But is that difference any greater than plopping a city >>> dweller 13,000 years in the past? Are office or political games >>> significantly different from the "games" wild babies play under the >>> vigilant eye of their den mother? Yeah, I know. I'm putting too much weight >>> on "significant". Obviously, everything's different from everything else. >>> (I regret not being able to engage more with Jon's exploration of Deleuze.) >>> But my conservatism tells me that objective othering would rely solely on >>> coherent traits, fingers vs. claws, hair vs. fur, cortex or no cortex. A >>> human now would be insignificantly different from a human then. If the >>> apocalypse doesn't transform us into something other than human, whatever >>> is rebuilt will be strikingly similar to what we have now. >>> >>> >>>> On 5/28/23 11:29, David Eric Smith wrote: >>> > I’m not sure elitist, Steve, >>> > >>> > That’s one bad habit that I don’t think they have. >>> > >>> > More along the line, I suspect, of “out of ordinary people who mostly >>> get mowed down, here and there will be some pockets that started to pay >>> attention and got lucky enough to have time to make a culture of it, of >>> sorts” >>> > >>> > Wes Jackson likes the term “saving remnant”. >>> > >>> > I happen to be in Sweden just now, and it has me thinking about sci-fi >>> futures, ad also Nietzsche’s “last man” etc. >>> > >>> > Also on this theme is the very interesting SFI lecture “living with >>> distrust”, which signals things I have seen (Ernst Fehr?) and others say >>> about the Ache and Machiguenga and other groups. >>> > >>> > >>> > Take any wild animal, and contemplate just how _different_ they are >>> from us. Never lazy. Never un-vigilant. Or read Jonathan Shay’s Achilles >>> in Vietnam. >>> > >>> > Suppose all the people who remain have survived only because they are >>> that. Unwind not only the past 70 years of developed-world tranquility, >>> but the history of human domestication since at least the younger dryas. >>> Maybe a lot longer ago than that. >>> > >>> > What is it like to have your Time Machine and go spend a weekend with >>> those guys in their home? Jared Diamond would be jealous. Somehow not the >>> domain of peace and spirituality that I think first-worlders like to >>> project onto first-nationers, and which might even be true for the >>> first-nationers, since they are also from a milder time by a lot than a >>> large extinction. >>> > >>> > I wish I had the imagination to be interesting. It would be >>> invigorating to read someone who could really imagine a different world, >>> and a different us, and take you there in some convincing way. >>> > >>> > Eric >>> > >>> > >>> >> On May 28, 2023, at 6:55 PM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com >>> <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Eric - >>> >> >>> >> Thanks for passing this link around here. I suspect most here have >>> the background to appreciate/parse this < insert Steve Martin's "hear me >>> now and believe me later" SNL skit> but maybe not an "affordance to know" >>> the more acute implications of it. >>> >> >>> >> One of the things I find (most) interesting in the RGND rhetoric is >>> >> their (appropriate) invocation of Complex Systems ideas as well as >>> >> the convergence of human consciousness (mostly from a neuroscience >>> >> perspective) and the complex systems which are the >>> >> techno-social-economic systems that are our energo-materio culture >>> >> which is the engine that is spinning the earth-systems out of the >>> >> orbits they were in pre-anthropocene (150 or 15000 years?) >>> >> >>> >> I may be reading them wrong, but this feels like "yet another" >>> elitist trope, this time on (nanotech?) steroids: >>> >> >>> >> /In short, we think it’s probable that MTI civilization will >>> >> collapse catastrophically but that pockets of people with a rising >>> >> level of consciousness and awareness of our eco-predicament will >>> >> survive and act as the seeders of a new world./// >>> >> >>> >> I particularly appreciated your pithy observation: >>> >> >>> >> /But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists and the >>> >> GNDers. The concentration in the rate and provision of services, and >>> >> of the ownership of the proceeds by whoever the rulers turn out to >>> >> be, leaves the rest of us free to die off in peace, and not carry on >>> >> the guilt of being ecological criminals. It’s a win-win./ >>> >> >>> >> / >>> >> / >>> >> >>> >> Thanks to Sabine (as Cassandra) and Eric and Marcus for raising this >>> to my attention... queing it up to provide background for my read lead me >>> to her Collective Stupidity episode >>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng >>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng>>. >>> >> >>> >> I am left wondering if/how LLMs reflect/relate to Wisdom/Stupidity of >>> Crowds? Seems like LLMs are literally the encapsulation of collective >>> knowledge. >>> >> >>> >> Sabine's invocation of "Information Cascades" was interesting in >>> contrast with entrainment and canalization. Will LLMs in some way help us >>> avoid these short-circuits/shunts? Or aggravate them? >>> >> >>> >> - Steve >>> >> >>> >> On 5/28/23 2:46 AM, David Eric Smith wrote: >>> >>> This comment leads to an interesting angle that I haven’t heard. >>> >>> Bill Rees, whom you can find here: >>> >>> <d8f080_78c1ab7b00b045ff9bbc01a273b00173~mv2.jpg> >>> >>> Home | The REAL Green New Deal Project >>> >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org> >>> >>> %2f&c=E,1,s4xLfGynLIjkrUt9NbN7gTjzG9OOoaJe64vBX3p4819H6jFz9AJSSe-qv9 >>> >>> yDN4qwXF8gSayAREexT0axFnHBthp_EmNYm91Bl5Edsist24GG&typo=1> >>> >>> realgnd.org <http://realgnd.org> >>> >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org> >>> >>> %2f&c=E,1,mLU-zLi9KLRqdV1LCSsLf4xAqRPWhhLSvzK0ajNxs-Bl31f_tDo3AuTO8F >>> >>> ftJArhBwcEpVAtKd58f8Nn8HWN8QWG-poN1K4CsHllfzctVyYuePFkCMo,&typo=1> >>> >>> >>> >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org> >>> >>> %2f&c=E,1,ui2uypSQ13uMOEz7hzM4YulUakJ2dduLZEW4fMauG5gh85fLSDmPC9mu3s >>> >>> aCYT5TA1zSp3f4E7hrdi7Iu-Yxbt88L44PzeI9TxTtDQBN6mNsS-h87nJxhCE,&typo= >>> >>> 1> writes numerous papers about how 90% of us need to die, or that >>> >>> this is just what will happen whether we articulate such a need or >>> not. I won’t go so far as to say that Rees “wants” 90% of us to die (see >>> the smiling grandfatherly bearded ecologist photo in the pages), but after >>> a long life of writing Jeremiads and not seeing the world change its ways, >>> he seems so defeated by frustration that I read in him a deep and now >>> constitutive misanthropy. >>> >>> >>> >>> (btw: the Real GND website is best read while listening to Sabine >>> >>> Hossenfelder’s song My Name is Cassandra, Prophet of the Dark. >>> >>> Thanks Marcus for making me aware of her oeuvre, I had never noticed >>> >>> it.) >>> >>> >>> >>> Usually, the problem with the bait-and-switch of new technologies is >>> “look, it will save so much labor we will all have leisure to be creative >>> while still having comfortable levels of consumption”, when what actually >>> happens is classic Marx: the few who can enclose the new services, either >>> because they are exclusive or just through market-gravitational effects, >>> now own an even larger sector of all income, and the expanding remnant is >>> made increasingly desperate. >>> >>> >>> >>> But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists and the >>> GNDers. The concentration in the rate and provision of services, and of >>> the ownership of the proceeds by whoever the rulers turn out to be, leaves >>> the rest of us free to die off in peace, and not carry on the guilt of >>> being ecological criminals. It’s a win-win. >>> >>> >>> >>> I worry that that story is probably incomplete, and maybe thereby >>> wrong. The concentrating advantage of advanced autocomplete services might >>> only be a transient while our current stock of primary knowledge is >>> “enough” and “not fully mined”. Maybe all the inefficient activity of >>> ordinary people is somehow a diffuse source that actually expands the >>> primary base. Certainly my impression of ecological organizations is that, >>> below any small population of charismatic megafauna, there is a whole >>> pyramid that goes down to an astonishing number of nitrogen-fixer bacteria. >>> >>> >>> >>> But I don’t know, what organizations are necessary by physical, >>> mathematical, and biological laws, and which might be possible that we just >>> haven’t ever seen before. >>> >>> >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On May 28, 2023, at 7:27 AM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com >>> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Looking at the recent rapid release of open source LLM systems like >>> Falcon and Mosaic ML, Llama, etc. there is more going-on than titans like >>> Microsoft, and Google battling it out with giant closed systems. These are >>> human know-how crystalized into open-source deliverables. Why not share >>> knowledge representations in this way? Consider the cost and time that >>> goes into medical or legal training. Sure the energy requirements of >>> digital systems are high, but so are the energy expenditures of a planet >>> full of humans. >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>> *From:*Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on behalf of Steve Smith >>> >>>> <sasm...@swcp.com <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> *Sent:*Friday, May 26, >>> 2023 2:06 PM >>> >>>> *To:*friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com><friam@redfish.com >>> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> >>> >>>> *Subject:*Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> My grandsons' girlfriends (twenty-somethings) say that they think >>> babies are disgusting. I hope they change their minds. In any case, what >>> does a shortage of babies have to do with AI? >>> >>>> Babies *are* (can be) disgusting, but same for puppies, kitties, >>> and garden-soil from the right (wrong) perspective! >>> >>>> Maybe the point is "nobody left for the AI overlords to lord over" ? >>> >>>> I think the key is "existential threat"... I didn't look for >>> Schmidt's statement anywhere, so I'm just speculating that maybe he's doing >>> a mild echo of Musk's idea that a collapsing (first) world population is >>> somehow a *bigger* existential threat? >>> >>>> With my techhead hat on I am inclined to imagine that AI will help >>> me (well, not ME anymore, but people vaguely like who I once thought I was >>> or wanted to be) solve micro-techonomic problems like the ones that lead to >>> Teflon(tm) and Velcro(tm) and higher density/faster-charge EV batteries, >>> and higher density/dynamic range pixel-displays, and neural lace to wire >>> (grow?) into my brain/ganglia, and microbes that can convert moon/mars-dust >>> to Soylent/Huel/Water/??? etc. >>> >>>> My PsychoHistory hatted self (Asimov - Foundation >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional) >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional)>>and >>> thenon-fictional variant >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#:~:text=Psychohistory%20is%20an%20amalgam%20of,stated%20intention%20and%20actual%20behavior >>> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#:~:text=Psychohistory%20is%20an%20amalgam%20of,stated%20intention%20and%20actual%20behavior>.>) >>> is inclined to imagine that AI *can* help with the "big problems", the >>> ones nominally too large, too interdisciplinarian, too obtuse, too "wycked" >>> (In Complexity Science jargon), possibly too counter-intuitive for most >>> (any?) human or group of humans to grasp. >>> >>>> My Ned Ludd (very tight by definition?) hat has me thinking more >>> down the rabbit holes of worst-case scenarios where all the arrogant, >>> narcissistic @$$h0ii3z of the world (starting at the top with those whose >>> names start with Pu Tr Be Zu Mu(r/s) Ne De ... and staggering down the >>> hierarchy of potency and scope to most of us here most of the time) think >>> they "know what is best" and put their resources to using the AI lever to >>> "make it so"... >>> >>>> Even (especially) me, I constantly imagine that "if they made ME >>> King" (or to the point, if *I* was the/wormtongue/in the AI Overlord's ear) >>> that I would "make the world safe and happy for everyone, ever after with >>> no unintended consequences or unpleasant side effects". >>> >>>> One *might* guess that the smartest thinkers in the most grounded, >>> thoughtful, gentle think-tanks (e.g. in a Tibetan Lamasary or the "Club of >>> Rome" or SIPRI or CESR or the Justice League of America or the people who >>> task "jewish space lasers" or ??? ) would be practicing their AI-whispering >>> skills right now. Maybe tasking Marcus' Quantum Computer with "the hard >>> problem of universal consciousness"? >>> >>>> >>> >>>> An up-to-date version of Asimov's9 Billion Names of God >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God>>? >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> --- >>> >>>>> Frank C. Wimberly >>> >>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>> >>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 505 670-9918 >>> >>>>> Santa Fe, NM >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> On Thu, May 25, 2023, 12:48 PM Roger Critchlow <r...@elf.org >>> <mailto:r...@elf.org> <mailto:r...@elf.org <mailto:r...@elf.org>>> wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Google news decided to surface an article from Fortune today. >>> It's headlined "Society's refusal to have enough babies is what will save >>> it from the existential threat of A. I., Eric Schmidt says". The headline >>> is accompanied by a very serious head shot of Eric. Nice try, Google, but >>> you're not sucking me down that rabbit hole. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Meanwhile, someone apparently read my mind about the >>> rationality of disaster prepping and wrote an epic novel about it 40 years >>> ago in Catalan. The Garden of the Seven Twilights by Miquel de Palol is >>> available in English translation and as an ebook onoverdrive.com >>> <http://onoverdrive.com> >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2foverdrive.com&c=E,1,qiLuQHPdYM-73PUnxLjrSTzI76V8rfL6yb0_zHcdufFpFa1_kCTZkOyfYIh_N_0ysaWtjxXmwlL7kj8mmwGK2wfSP_01M-8QKT_yUEwBhHUL1Wuk-x_ACQBsspQ,&typo=1 >>> >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2foverdrive.com&c=E,1,qiLuQHPdYM-73PUnxLjrSTzI76V8rfL6yb0_zHcdufFpFa1_kCTZkOyfYIh_N_0ysaWtjxXmwlL7kj8mmwGK2wfSP_01M-8QKT_yUEwBhHUL1Wuk-x_ACQBsspQ,&typo=1>>at >>> your local library. The narrator crosses refugee swamped Barcelona to >>> check on his mom and gets sent off by her to a McMansion'ed medieval >>> monastery high in the Pyrenees where the elite are amusing themselves with >>> stories while awaiting the resolution of the first war >>> of entertainment. Lots of stories about themselves and their friends >>> and acquaintances. >>> >>>>> > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
