On Wed, May 31, 2023, at 5:34 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
Eric's musing on the character of the saving remnant reminded me of Ötzi, the
Tyrolean ice mummy, as portrayed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(2017_film)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(2017_film)>.
Some commentators note the western movie tropes, but when Ötzi gears up to
chase down the pillagers of his family settlement, he also straps on the infant
who was the sole survivor of the pillaging. Of course he drops the kid off
with the first available woman he meets.
Shades of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub>, the samurai with a baby
carriage. But as I remember, the cub became part of the lone wolf's arsenal.
So, when you posit a de-domesticated human, what happens to the extended
juvenile development of humans? Babies and toddlers are going to remain
domestic concerns no matter how much bourgeois mediocrity you eject from your
morality, no? And I guess burnt out philosophers with mental health issues
will be domestic issues, too, even if they were once supermen?
-- rec --
On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 10:04 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com
<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
"What do I think the saving remnant will be? I imagine people who lost all the
epigenetic marks associated with domestication, and took on hormone profiles more like
chimps. Or “born this way” to PTSD."
In stories like Elysium, the saving remnant survives. Why doesn't popular
science fiction consider the future in which only Elysium endures? We have
lots of experience on earth making sure that communities are partitioned by
socioeconomic status. All of the saving remnants I see around here are
homeless or hovering near death due to use of heroin and fentanyl. The deer,
however, happily munch on my front yard plants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film)>
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>
On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 7:27 AM
To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege
"Somehow not the domain of peace and spirituality that I think first-worlders
like to project onto first-nationers, and which might even be true for the
first-nationers, since they are also from a milder time by a lot than a large
extinction."
IDK, man. Are wild animals different from us in any significant way? Are they
actually never lazy, never unvigilant, etc? Or, perhaps, is the attribution of vigilance
(and hence never unvigilance) an illusion born of othering? A standard whipping post for
me is this "Are you a cat person or a dog person" cocktail party ice breaker.
Admitting the false dichotomy, dog people tend to think of cats as non-social, selfish,
blahblah. Cat people tend to think of dogs as slobbery, vapid, etc. It's complete
nonsense born of arbitrary delusions.
But of course, there is something to be said of the built environment. It would be difficult
for a human reared in a city to navigate the Mongolian desert. But is that difference any greater
than plopping a city dweller 13,000 years in the past? Are office or political games significantly
different from the "games" wild babies play under the vigilant eye of their den mother?
Yeah, I know. I'm putting too much weight on "significant". Obviously, everything's
different from everything else. (I regret not being able to engage more with Jon's exploration of
Deleuze.) But my conservatism tells me that objective othering would rely solely on coherent
traits, fingers vs. claws, hair vs. fur, cortex or no cortex. A human now would be insignificantly
different from a human then. If the apocalypse doesn't transform us into something other than
human, whatever is rebuilt will be strikingly similar to what we have now.
On 5/28/23 11:29, David Eric Smith wrote:
> I’m not sure elitist, Steve,
>
> That’s one bad habit that I don’t think they have.
>
> More along the line, I suspect, of “out of ordinary people who mostly get
mowed down, here and there will be some pockets that started to pay attention and
got lucky enough to have time to make a culture of it, of sorts”
>
> Wes Jackson likes the term “saving remnant”.
>
> I happen to be in Sweden just now, and it has me thinking about sci-fi
futures, ad also Nietzsche’s “last man” etc.
>
> Also on this theme is the very interesting SFI lecture “living with
distrust”, which signals things I have seen (Ernst Fehr?) and others say about the
Ache and Machiguenga and other groups.
>
>
> Take any wild animal, and contemplate just how _different_ they are from
us. Never lazy. Never un-vigilant. Or read Jonathan Shay’s Achilles in Vietnam.
>
> Suppose all the people who remain have survived only because they are
that. Unwind not only the past 70 years of developed-world tranquility, but the
history of human domestication since at least the younger dryas. Maybe a lot
longer ago than that.
>
> What is it like to have your Time Machine and go spend a weekend with
those guys in their home? Jared Diamond would be jealous. Somehow not the domain
of peace and spirituality that I think first-worlders like to project onto
first-nationers, and which might even be true for the first-nationers, since they
are also from a milder time by a lot than a large extinction.
>
> I wish I had the imagination to be interesting. It would be invigorating
to read someone who could really imagine a different world, and a different us,
and take you there in some convincing way.
>
> Eric
>
>
>> On May 28, 2023, at 6:55 PM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com
<mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Eric -
>>
>> Thanks for passing this link around here. I suspect most here have the background to
appreciate/parse this < insert Steve Martin's "hear me now and believe me later" SNL skit> but
maybe not an "affordance to know" the more acute implications of it.
>>
>> One of the things I find (most) interesting in the RGND rhetoric is
>> their (appropriate) invocation of Complex Systems ideas as well as
>> the convergence of human consciousness (mostly from a neuroscience
>> perspective) and the complex systems which are the
>> techno-social-economic systems that are our energo-materio culture
>> which is the engine that is spinning the earth-systems out of the
>> orbits they were in pre-anthropocene (150 or 15000 years?)
>>
>> I may be reading them wrong, but this feels like "yet another" elitist
trope, this time on (nanotech?) steroids:
>>
>> /In short, we think it’s probable that MTI civilization will
>> collapse catastrophically but that pockets of people with a rising
>> level of consciousness and awareness of our eco-predicament will
>> survive and act as the seeders of a new world.///
>>
>> I particularly appreciated your pithy observation:
>>
>> /But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists and the
>> GNDers. The concentration in the rate and provision of services, and
>> of the ownership of the proceeds by whoever the rulers turn out to
>> be, leaves the rest of us free to die off in peace, and not carry on
>> the guilt of being ecological criminals. It’s a win-win./
>>
>> /
>> /
>>
>> Thanks to Sabine (as Cassandra) and Eric and Marcus for raising this to my
attention... queing it up to provide background for my read lead me to her Collective Stupidity
episode <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng>>.
>>
>> I am left wondering if/how LLMs reflect/relate to Wisdom/Stupidity of
Crowds? Seems like LLMs are literally the encapsulation of collective knowledge.
>>
>> Sabine's invocation of "Information Cascades" was interesting in
contrast with entrainment and canalization. Will LLMs in some way help us avoid these
short-circuits/shunts? Or aggravate them?
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>> On 5/28/23 2:46 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>> This comment leads to an interesting angle that I haven’t heard.
>>> Bill Rees, whom you can find here:
>>> <d8f080_78c1ab7b00b045ff9bbc01a273b00173~mv2.jpg>
>>> Home | The REAL Green New Deal Project
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org>
>>> %2f&c=E,1,s4xLfGynLIjkrUt9NbN7gTjzG9OOoaJe64vBX3p4819H6jFz9AJSSe-qv9
>>> yDN4qwXF8gSayAREexT0axFnHBthp_EmNYm91Bl5Edsist24GG&typo=1>
>>> realgnd.org <http://realgnd.org>
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org>
>>> %2f&c=E,1,mLU-zLi9KLRqdV1LCSsLf4xAqRPWhhLSvzK0ajNxs-Bl31f_tDo3AuTO8F
>>> ftJArhBwcEpVAtKd58f8Nn8HWN8QWG-poN1K4CsHllfzctVyYuePFkCMo,&typo=1>
>>>
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org>
>>> %2f&c=E,1,ui2uypSQ13uMOEz7hzM4YulUakJ2dduLZEW4fMauG5gh85fLSDmPC9mu3s
>>> aCYT5TA1zSp3f4E7hrdi7Iu-Yxbt88L44PzeI9TxTtDQBN6mNsS-h87nJxhCE,&typo=
>>> 1> writes numerous papers about how 90% of us need to die, or that
>>> this is just what will happen whether we articulate such a need or not.
I won’t go so far as to say that Rees “wants” 90% of us to die (see the smiling
grandfatherly bearded ecologist photo in the pages), but after a long life of writing
Jeremiads and not seeing the world change its ways, he seems so defeated by frustration
that I read in him a deep and now constitutive misanthropy.
>>>
>>> (btw: the Real GND website is best read while listening to Sabine
>>> Hossenfelder’s song My Name is Cassandra, Prophet of the Dark.
>>> Thanks Marcus for making me aware of her oeuvre, I had never noticed
>>> it.)
>>>
>>> Usually, the problem with the bait-and-switch of new technologies is
“look, it will save so much labor we will all have leisure to be creative while still
having comfortable levels of consumption”, when what actually happens is classic Marx:
the few who can enclose the new services, either because they are exclusive or just
through market-gravitational effects, now own an even larger sector of all income, and
the expanding remnant is made increasingly desperate.
>>>
>>> But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists and the GNDers.
The concentration in the rate and provision of services, and of the ownership of the
proceeds by whoever the rulers turn out to be, leaves the rest of us free to die off in
peace, and not carry on the guilt of being ecological criminals. It’s a win-win.
>>>
>>> I worry that that story is probably incomplete, and maybe thereby
wrong. The concentrating advantage of advanced autocomplete services might only be a
transient while our current stock of primary knowledge is “enough” and “not fully
mined”. Maybe all the inefficient activity of ordinary people is somehow a diffuse
source that actually expands the primary base. Certainly my impression of ecological
organizations is that, below any small population of charismatic megafauna, there is a
whole pyramid that goes down to an astonishing number of nitrogen-fixer bacteria.
>>>
>>> But I don’t know, what organizations are necessary by physical,
mathematical, and biological laws, and which might be possible that we just haven’t ever
seen before.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 28, 2023, at 7:27 AM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com
<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Looking at the recent rapid release of open source LLM systems like
Falcon and Mosaic ML, Llama, etc. there is more going-on than titans like Microsoft, and
Google battling it out with giant closed systems. These are human know-how crystalized
into open-source deliverables. Why not share knowledge representations in this way?
Consider the cost and time that goes into medical or legal training. Sure the energy
requirements of digital systems are high, but so are the energy expenditures of a planet
full of humans.
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:*Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on behalf of Steve Smith
>>>> <sasm...@swcp.com <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> *Sent:*Friday, May 26,
2023 2:06 PM
>>>> *To:*friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com><friam@redfish.com
<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege
>>>>
>>>>> My grandsons' girlfriends (twenty-somethings) say that they think
babies are disgusting. I hope they change their minds. In any case, what does a shortage of
babies have to do with AI?
>>>> Babies *are* (can be) disgusting, but same for puppies, kitties, and
garden-soil from the right (wrong) perspective!
>>>> Maybe the point is "nobody left for the AI overlords to lord over" ?
>>>> I think the key is "existential threat"... I didn't look for
Schmidt's statement anywhere, so I'm just speculating that maybe he's doing a mild echo of Musk's
idea that a collapsing (first) world population is somehow a *bigger* existential threat?
>>>> With my techhead hat on I am inclined to imagine that AI will help me
(well, not ME anymore, but people vaguely like who I once thought I was or wanted to be)
solve micro-techonomic problems like the ones that lead to Teflon(tm) and Velcro(tm) and
higher density/faster-charge EV batteries, and higher density/dynamic range pixel-displays,
and neural lace to wire (grow?) into my brain/ganglia, and microbes that can convert
moon/mars-dust to Soylent/Huel/Water/??? etc.
>>>> My PsychoHistory hatted self (Asimov - Foundation <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional)>>and thenon-fictional variant
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#:~:text=Psychohistory%20is%20an%20amalgam%20of,stated%20intention%20and%20actual%20behavior
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#:~:text=Psychohistory%20is%20an%20amalgam%20of,stated%20intention%20and%20actual%20behavior>.>)
is inclined to imagine that AI *can* help with the "big problems", the ones nominally too large, too interdisciplinarian,
too obtuse, too "wycked" (In Complexity Science jargon), possibly too counter-intuitive for most (any?) human or group of
humans to grasp.
>>>> My Ned Ludd (very tight by definition?) hat has me thinking more down the rabbit holes of
worst-case scenarios where all the arrogant, narcissistic @$$h0ii3z of the world (starting at the top with
those whose names start with Pu Tr Be Zu Mu(r/s) Ne De ... and staggering down the hierarchy of potency and
scope to most of us here most of the time) think they "know what is best" and put their resources to
using the AI lever to "make it so"...
>>>> Even (especially) me, I constantly imagine that "if they made ME King" (or to
the point, if *I* was the/wormtongue/in the AI Overlord's ear) that I would "make the world safe and happy
for everyone, ever after with no unintended consequences or unpleasant side effects".
>>>> One *might* guess that the smartest thinkers in the most grounded, thoughtful, gentle think-tanks
(e.g. in a Tibetan Lamasary or the "Club of Rome" or SIPRI or CESR or the Justice League of America or the
people who task "jewish space lasers" or ??? ) would be practicing their AI-whispering skills right now. Maybe
tasking Marcus' Quantum Computer with "the hard problem of universal consciousness"?
>>>>
>>>> An up-to-date version of Asimov's9 Billion Names of God
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God>>?
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>>>
>>>>> 505 670-9918
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 25, 2023, 12:48 PM Roger Critchlow <r...@elf.org <mailto:r...@elf.org>
<mailto:r...@elf.org <mailto:r...@elf.org>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Google news decided to surface an article from Fortune today. It's
headlined "Society's refusal to have enough babies is what will save it from the existential threat
of A. I., Eric Schmidt says". The headline is accompanied by a very serious head shot of Eric.
Nice try, Google, but you're not sucking me down that rabbit hole.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, someone apparently read my mind about the rationality of disaster prepping and wrote an
epic novel about it 40 years ago in Catalan. The Garden of the Seven Twilights by Miquel de Palol is available in English
translation and as an ebook onoverdrive.com <http://onoverdrive.com>
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2foverdrive.com&c=E,1,qiLuQHPdYM-73PUnxLjrSTzI76V8rfL6yb0_zHcdufFpFa1_kCTZkOyfYIh_N_0ysaWtjxXmwlL7kj8mmwGK2wfSP_01M-8QKT_yUEwBhHUL1Wuk-x_ACQBsspQ,&typo=1
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2foverdrive.com&c=E,1,qiLuQHPdYM-73PUnxLjrSTzI76V8rfL6yb0_zHcdufFpFa1_kCTZkOyfYIh_N_0ysaWtjxXmwlL7kj8mmwGK2wfSP_01M-8QKT_yUEwBhHUL1Wuk-x_ACQBsspQ,&typo=1>>at
your local library. The narrator crosses refugee swamped Barcelona to check on his mom and gets sent off by her to a
McMansion'ed medieval monastery high in the Pyrenees where the elite are amusing themselves with stories while awaiting the
resolution of the first war
of entertainment. Lots of stories about themselves and their friends and
acquaintances.
>>>>>
