teleonomic matter (particles that think) - totally consistent with Vedic / Buddhist cosmology. Even elementary particles are subject to the Law of Karma if they "misbehave"—something very unlikely, but not impossible.
davew On Mon, Jul 17, 2023, at 10:27 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 2:35 PM David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> wrote: >> [...] [Yoshi Oono's The Nonlinear World] >> in which he argues that the phenomena you mention are only “pseudo-complex”. >> Yoshi, like David but with less of the predictable “Darwin-was-better; now >> what subject are we discussing today?” vibe, argues that there is a >> threshold to “true complexity” that is only crossed in systems that obey >> what Yoshi calls a “Pasteur principle”; they are of a kind that effectively >> can’t emerge spontaneously, but can evolve from ancestors once they exist. >> He says (translating slightly from his words to mine) that such systems >> split the notion of “boundary conditions” into two sub-kinds that differ >> qualitatively. There are the “fundamental conditions” (in biology, the >> contents of genomes with indefinitely deep ancestry), that mine an >> indefinite past sparsely and selectively, versus ordinary “boundary >> conditions”, which are the dense here-and-now. The fundamental conditions >> often provide criteria that allow the complex thing to respond to parts of >> the here-and-now, and ignore other parts, feeding back onto the update of >> the fundamental conditions. >> >> I don’t know when I will get time to listen to David’s appearance with Sean, >> so with apologies cannot know whether his argument is similar in its logic. >> But Yoshi’s framing appeals to me a lot, because it is like a kind of >> spontaneous symmetry breaking or ergodicity breaking in the representations >> of information and how they modulate the networks of connection to the >> space-time continuum. That seems to me a very fertile idea. I am still >> looking for some concrete model that makes it compelling and useful for >> something I want to solve. (I probably have written this on the list >> before, in which case apologies for being repetitive. But this mention is >> framed specifically to your question whether one should be disappointed in >> the demotion of the complexity in phenomena.) >> [...] >>> On Jul 18, 2023, at 4:37 AM, Stephen Guerin <stephengue...@fas.harvard.edu> >>> wrote: >>> >>> [...] >>> 1. Teleonomic Material: the latest use by David Krakauer on Sean Carroll's >>> recent podcast >>> <https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/07/10/242-david-krakauer-on-complexity-agency-and-information/> >>> in summarizing Complexity. Hurricanes, flocks and Benard Cells according >>> to David are not Complex, BTW. I find the move a little frustrating and >>> disappointing but I always respect his perspective. > Okay, I listened to the podcast. > > DK says that real complexity starts with teleonomic matter, also known as > particles that think. He says that such agents carry around some > representation of the external world. And then the discussion gets > distracted to other topics, at one point getting to "large language model > paper clip nightmares". > > My response to Eric's description of Oono's "Pasteur principle" was that it > sounds a lot like "Attention Is All You Need" > (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1706.03762.pdf), the founding paper of the Transformer > class of neural network models. > > The "fundamental conditions" in a Transformer would be the trained neural net > which specifies the patterns of attention and responses learned during > training. The "ordinary conditions" would be the input sequence given to the > Transformer. The Transformer breaks up the input sequence into attention > patterns, evaluates the response to the current set of input values selected > by the attention patterns, emits an element to the output sequence, and > advances the input cursor. > > Anyone else see the family resemblance here? > > -- rec -- > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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