Glen, This is a test to illustrate somethiing about Gmail to Nick.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 4:37 PM glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347215003085 > > > > On July 9, 2024 2:04:29 PM PDT, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> > wrote: > >> Maybe I should not be replying, as I do believe my dogs (and your cat if >> you have one) are conscious. >> >> I have not experienced a Vulcan Mind-Meld with either of my dogs, so I >> cannot say with certainty they are conscious—I must infer it from >> observations: >> 1- interactions with other dogs would seem to indicate they "remember" >> past interactions and do not require the same butt-sniffing protocol with >> dogs they have met at the park frequently. Also they seem to remember who >> plays with who and who doesn't. "That ball is not mine, this one is." >> 2-they modify their behavior depending on the tenor, sharpness, and >> volume of barks, ear positions, tail wagging differences, by the other >> dogs; e.g., "that's enough." >> 3-They do not communicate to me in English, but seem to accept >> communication from me in that language—not trained responses to commands, >> but "listening to conversations" between myself and Mary and reacting to >> words (e.g., dog park) that are exchanged in those conversations. Mary and >> I are totally sedentary and speaking in conversational tone, so pretty sure >> there we are not sending 'signals' akin to training words, training tone of >> voice. >> 4-they seem to remember trauma, (one of our dogs spent three days with >> dead owner before anyone knew the owner was deceased and will bite if >> anyone tries to forcefully remove him from my (current bonded owner) >> presence. >> 5-seek "psychological comfort" by crawling into my bed and sleeping on my >> shoulder when the thunderstorm comes. >> >> *All of these are grounded in anthropomorphism—long considered a deadly >> error by ethologists.* (Some contemporary ethologists are exploring >> accepting and leveraging this "error" to extend our understanding of animal >> behavior.) >> >> davew >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, at 2:54 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> >> While I find all the ancillary considerations raised on the original >> thread extremely interesting, I would like to reopen the discussion of >> Conscious as a Mystery and ask that those that join it stay close to the >> question of what consciousness is and how we know it when we see it. Baby >> Steps. >> >> Where were we? I think I was asking Jochen, and perhaps Peitr and >> anybody else who thought that animals were not conscious (i.e., not aware >> of their own awareness) what basis they had in experience for thinking >> that.. One offering for such an experience is the absence of language in >> animals. Because my cat cannot describe his experience in words, he >> cannot be conscious. This requires the following syllogism: >> >> Nothing that does not employ a language (or two?) is conscious. >> Animals (with ;the possible exception of signing apes) do not employ >> languages. >> Ergo, Animals are not conscious. >> >> But I was trying to find out the basis for the first premise. How do we >> know that there are no non-linguistic beings that are not conscious. I >> hope we could rule out the answer,"because they are non-linguistic", both >> in its strictly tautological or merely circular form. >> >> There is a closely related syllogism which we also need to explore: >> >> All language using beings are conscious. >> George Peter Tremblay IV is a language-using being. >> George Peter Tremblay IV is conscious. >> >> Both are valid syllogisms. But where do the premises come from. >> >> Nick >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Frank Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Research: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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