Nick, It is Glen's metaphor, but I read it as less of an atomic, stellar/particle accelerator, type of fusion and a gentler combining-synthesizing kind of thing.
davew On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, at 11:38 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > David, > > I am having trouble with the fusion metaphor. I can think of two kinds of > fusions that might be operating here: a bunch of stuff is pushed together at > very high velocity, and there is a giant bang. Alternatively, a bunch of > different substances Are heated to a high temperature and form a piece of > slag. Is either these metaphors appropriate to your understanding? Or are you > operating with a different one? > Sent from my Dumb Phone > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 11:55 AM, steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > Glen - > > All animalia have closed neural-sensorimotor loops and all life have chem-bio > sensorimotor loops? > > So the "fusion" of which you speak, if we want to reserve "consciousness" for > humans, human-familiars (pets, other domesticates, human-tolerant wild > animals), charismatic animals (the ones we are fascinated with, ranging from > polar bears and whales to elephants and dugongs and penguins, and octupii and > maybe sharks and jellyfish). > > I don't *want* to do this, but I think it is a human bias to see things that > are familiar to them (warm blooded predators within an order of magnitude of > their own size?) > > The automated catching of objects and DaveW's assertion that there are > multiple selves/consciousnesses involved was apt IMO... I'd want to grant > ganglia, plexuses, the whole PNS to have it's own "consciousness" in the > strong sense of what we see tentacled things to do. I've watched felines and > primates whose *tails* very much seem to have a life of their own. > Subservient or deferential to the brain-centric self, but nevertheless pretty > damn autonomous. > > In the spirit of splitting hairs of distinction into finer hairs, I don't see > an obvious "threshold of consciousness", only an "horizon" of *recognizeable > to me* consciousness. I can project conscious-like presence onto the giant > volcanic plug nearby known broadly as "Black Mesa" but it is a much bigger > stretch for me to do this with a random stone or pebble I might pick up off > the ground... on the other hand, a particularly interesting one I might set > in a place of prominence (on a fencepost, a windowsill, a shrine) it becomes > more and more and more familiar to me as I visit with my sensorium and the > "mind" behind it... my own consciousness to wit? > > Harping on the Deacontionary: Any partition of the universe which exhibits > teleodynamics would be conscious under that programme. Homeodynamics (that > which keeps a pebble a pebble as it tumbles and erodes) and morphodynamics > (that which keeps a river channel or a sand dune consistently itselve under > the changeout of all parts?) > > I don't disagree that "conciousness" is in the "fusion" only want to split > hairs or elaborate on the degrees and/or styles of said "fusion" and that > perhaps the "style" of fusion that my favorite tree outside my window is > engaging in constantly as it absorbs nutrients through its roots, breathes > CO2/O2 in/out of it's leaves, transforms electromagnetic energy (sunlight) > into chemical energy (hydrocarbon bonds) and ultimately things like > cellulose, is yet more conscious than the rivercourse of the Rio Grande > nearby managing to carve a series of channels while remaining roughly "the > Rio Grande" for millenia. > > Mumble, > > - Steve > > On 7/25/24 7:29 AM, glen wrote: >> I disagree the theme is "pausing between two possibilities". I view the >> theme as a *fusion* of sensory input. Sometimes, the sensory fusion appears >> to be intentionally stanced as a choice/decision. But that's not the case in >> the itch transfer, hat-catching, or satiety examples. Those are clearly >> examples of the fusion of high dimensional environmental data. >> >> Consciousness is that *fusion*. Another example is when someone wakes up >> from anesthesia, when you "see" that "someone is home". They've become >> conscious. They're now taking in a bunch of data from the environment and >> fusing it, making sense of it. I have a story akin to that, too. Before my >> mom got her pacemaker put in, she'd been in the ICU for a few days and had >> ICU delirium. She played cards with illusory people, kept telling me there >> was a man behind me, asking me what the man was doing there, etc. This is a >> kind of consciousness, but an incomplete kind. When she would "wake up" from >> that delirium, you could see that she was now fully "home", conscious, >> competently fusing the incoming data. >> >> >> On 7/24/24 18:46, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>> a theme that seems to run through these examples is that the animal >>> pauses between two possibilities. we are tempted to understand these >>> behaviors in terms of the consideration of alternatives, ...[snip]... >>> just as you cat instead of doing either of the two things you might expect, >>> hovers between the two, making what the ethologists would call "intention >>> movements" in either direction as the pressure leaks out. >>> >>> But what calls for an explanation in both cases is the violation of the >>> observer's expectations. >> >> > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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