Sure. FRIAM is a year around meeting. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 5:21 PM Jacques Mettes <jacmet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all, > I've been away/busy and have lost track of the schedule. Are we still > meeting in person over the summer? > Thanks, > Jacques > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:15 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I used to ride horses when I was a kid (10?) in New Mexico. Chico was >> docile and obedient when we were out and about but when we were approaching >> "home" and he could see the barn where the food was he would start to >> gallop and would go through the entrance without regard to its being too >> low for a rider to fit. If I hadn't jumped off I'd have been hurt. I never >> felt that he loved me. >> >> --- >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> >> 505 670-9918 >> Santa Fe, NM >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 4:00 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >> >>> Personally I only have experience with cats which my parents had when I >>> was young and the horse which my wife has now. I would say neither cats nor >>> horses love their owners. If a cat sleeps during the day on the couch it is >>> most likely not because it is so peaceful and cozy and loves to be around >>> you, it is rather because it is a nocturnal predator tired from hunting >>> birds and mice at night, which they occasionally proudly present to their >>> human owners. >>> >>> Horses love only two things: being near the herd and eating green grass, >>> ideally both at the same time. And if they go in heat they want to mate, >>> which happens every 21 days in female horses. They recognize their owners >>> after a few months, and start to trust them, but if you come to their >>> paddock and they come to you if is not because they love you but because >>> they love the carrots and apples that you likely have for them. Similarly >>> if you bring them back after the ride or the training they do not turn >>> around or say goodbye. It feels like almost autistic behavior sometimes >>> because they lack the social habits we usually have. >>> >>> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animal-emotions/201308/do-animals-typically-think-autistic-savants >>> >>> Therefore I would say based on my limited experience with cats and >>> horses that humans love their animals, yes, but animals do not love them >>> back in the same way. To me it feels more like they tolerate us as friends >>> for a limited time: friends who are useful because they provide food and >>> shelter. >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>> Date: 7/24/24 10:41 PM (GMT+01:00) >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>> friam@redfish.com> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics >>> >>> But you have no experiences yourself that are relevant to this question, >>> right? >>> >>> n >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 4:38 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Are animals and humans capable of mutual love? I'm not sure. It >>>> depends how you define love. Romantic love seems to be specific for humans. >>>> No matter how much your dog or cat may like you, "if you die at home alone, >>>> there's a decent chance your pet will eat you" >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceadviser-will-your-pet-eat-you-after-you-die >>>> >>>> But I believe Darwin was right when he wrote "there is no fundamental >>>> difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and >>>> pain, happiness, and misery" >>>> >>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo >>>> >>>> >>>> -J. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>> Date: 7/24/24 8:17 PM (GMT+01:00) >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics >>>> >>>> Jochen, >>>> >>>> No bending here. This IS the thread. >>>> >>>> I thought many of us came to agree, be deploying experiences, that an >>>> animal and a human were capable of mutual love. I was never sure where you >>>> stood on that. >>>> >>>> I want to get to the point where we can resolve our different view of >>>> animals and consciousness. My colleagues seemed to agree that these two >>>> propositions are true. >>>> >>>> *Dusty (Dave) **Is **conscious of Dave (Dusty).* >>>> >>>> And now we are working on these two: >>>> >>>> *Dusty (Dave) is c**onscious of Dusty (Dave).* >>>> >>>> I have been working on Dave's last post, which got forked into some >>>> noman's land for the last two hours, mostly trying to get a clean version >>>> of it into this thread. I will post it asap. Meantime, I am looking for >>>> experiences/anecdotes that would lead you to believe that >>>> animals/computers/humans are (are not) conscious. People have been >>>> enormously helpful in making me clarify what I am hoping for. Whatever >>>> else I mean by an experience/anecdote, it is a description of something >>>> that happened to somebody, preferably you, that affirmed (disconfirmed)your >>>> believe that animals are (are not) [self] conscious; what I don't mean is >>>> references lectures and tomes. Frankly, I would prefer to have a cat >>>> video. >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:31 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nick, >>>>> >>>>> Looking for self-awareness in animals before language emerged feels to >>>>> me like searching for culture in anthropology before civilizations >>>>> appeared. >>>>> >>>>> People in anthropology study human societies, cultures and their >>>>> development, but sadly mostly in the time before it gets interesting (when >>>>> religions, writing systems and civilizations emerged in ancient Egypt and >>>>> ancient Mesopotamia). They examine for instance primitive hunter gatherer >>>>> groups in Africa or ancient tribes in the Amazon region. >>>>> >>>>> Looking for examples of particular experiences with animals that show >>>>> signs of self-awareness (and not only respond to the world around them, >>>>> but >>>>> also respond to their own responding to the world around them) feels >>>>> similar to me: it is like focusing on a fascinating phenomenon but at a >>>>> place before it gets interesting. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If this comment bends the thread too much then please ignore it :-) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> J. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>> Date: 7/23/24 6:57 PM (GMT+01:00) >>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>>> friam@redfish.com>, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >>>>> Subject: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics >>>>> >>>>> David's last post so effectively blurs the lines between these two >>>>> that I am going to give up, for the moment, on my attempt to keep them >>>>> straight. >>>>> >>>>> Intuition tells me that Dave's post falls on one side of the line, and >>>>> Glen's on the other, but I have to go shopping. I am still hoping to >>>>> hear examples of particular experiences with animals, computers, spouses, >>>>> etc., that confirm your sense that they are not only responding to the >>>>> world around them, but also responding to their own responding to the >>>>> world >>>>> around them. >>>>> >>>>> Back to this later when stocked up >>>>> >>>>> In the meantime, Please, you-all, don't dick with this thread, don't >>>>> fork it and do, if you are responding to a particular comment, speak to >>>>> that person, don't just fling your wisdom out into the ether. >>>>> >>>>> I never thought you guys would turn me into a thread-Nazi. >>>>> >>>>> Nick >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>> Clark University >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>> Clark University >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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